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Chroma	Post subject: ERC on Ulthw Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 12:00 am
Brood Brother Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm Posts: 9684 Location: Montréal, QC, Canada	Quote (MC23 @ 11 2005 Aug.,23:34) You post made me raise some questions about it. First is anything exaggerated to try to make your point? You talk both about Ulthw? winning all games versus Biel-Tan and then you mention the games where they lost. For that Ulthwe loss, I meant *ever*!  Other than a loss against a Lost and the Damned army (when Ulthwe had Revenants), Ulthwe is undefeated in my local play group.  There have been some very close games, mainly against Imperial Guard, but they lay the smack down on every other army in our play group: Space Marines, Orks, Chaos Space Marines, and Imperial Guard.   As an Eldar player, I never take Revenants anymore.  I'd rather spend the points on up gunning Guardian hosts with Wraith constructs or getting more activations.  Maybe I've just had good luck with paired Scorpions or something, but I prefer them.  And I've really liked Falcon Troupes. Here's the list I'm currently using, does it look normal/balanced to you?  I usually set it up as two battle groups.  Occasionally I'll swap in super-heavies or air power as well. Eldar 2700 Points (Ulthwe List) Avatar Black Guardian Warhost 350 1 Seer Coucil 1 Farseer 3 Heavy Weapons Platforms 3 Guardians 3 Wraithguard Black Guardian Warhost 325 1 Farseer 1 Extra Farseer 3 Heavy Weapons Platforms 3 Guardians 3 Wraithguard Guardian Warhost 150 1 Farseer 3 Heavy Weapons Platforms 4 Guardians Guardian Warhost 150 1 Farseer 3 Heavy Weapons Platforms 4 Guardians Fire Prism Troupe 250 3 Fire Prisms Fire Prism Troupe 250 3 Fire Prisms Night Spinner Troupe 175 3 Night Spinners Ranger Troupe 150 6 Rangers Windrinder Troupe 200 6 Jetbikes Windrinder Troupe 200 6 Jetbikes Falcon Troupe 250 5 Falcons Falcon Troupe 250 5 Falcons Total 2700 I play Ulthwe, I love Ulthwe, and despite all this, I *want* to pay more points for my units!  That's the only point I have.  And it looks like other Ulthwe players are willing to do the same.  So, why not err on the side of caution?  If Ulthwe winds up being the weak Eldar army in the end, so be it, it's good to have a challenge and it can always be reviewed in the Rules Review. _________________ "EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?
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nealhunt

Post subject: ERC on Ulthw Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 3:34 pm

Purestrain Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm Posts: 9617 Location: Nashville, TN, USA

Quote (MC23 @ 12 2005 Aug.,00:00) Now if the ERC is going to tell me my experience with the army is worthless and their reading of the list is the only source expertise here I will walk away from this and from the whole EPIC community. No one said or implied anything of the sort. Now giving Black Guardians their own entry opens the possibilities of changing other options on them at the same time, which I don't mind considering.

I think you misunderstood.  As far as I know, no one is proposing additional changes.  It's just editorial.

The BG options are already different from the basic host.  A separate listing instead of having multiple "...or Black Guardians may take..." qualifiers would make it easier to follow.

When you say you would gladly pay the price, it sounds like you are only reading the list and have never fielded Ulthw?. I find the idea a serious decision and one I would not often make.

I haven't commanded the list, however, I do have first hand experience.  I have played against it many times and watched it in action in a few games I was not involved in.

As far as my comments about gladly paying the price, it was a general reference.  In any army, I would usually pay 25 points for a +1 to activate a largish formation.  For Eldar who can not only use the +1 but also get the Farsight bonuses, as I said, it's approaching "no brainer" status for me.

I've played the army many many times, I know I wouldn't take it. Guardians are cheap and die fast.

Black Guardians?  I nearly always see them fielded with multiple upgrades, meaning they are neither cheap, not die fast.  As I noted, they are usually in the 300-500 point range.  In my last game against them, the commander's host was mounted, with falcons, for a total cost of 550 points and the other BG host was in Wave Serpents for a total of 350.

I'm not trying to be beligerent.  I am really and truly boggled by your comments because they are completely at odds with everything I've ever seen in play.

I would really like to hear more detail on what considerations would drive you to abandon BGs for regular guardians and how it would change your overall army composition.