ERC on Ulthw |
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Post subject: ERC on Ulthw  Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 9:56 pm |
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Well, I've been using Black Guardian Warhost and Aspect Troupes each at 175 points for the past few games and I'm still kicking butt with them! The increase points has made for some tough choices, but I don't think it hurts Ulthwe at all.
I've also been using the Jetbikes/and Warwalkers options in my Black Guardian hosts; I find I'm using them much more aggressively, allowing the regular Guardians with Wraith-constructs to guard the backfield.
Zipping the little Aspect Troupes around in Wave Serpents and Falcons make for some credible little fire teams and lots of crossfires. Bracketting an enemy with Dark Reapers and Fire Dragons and then zipping in mounted Black Guardians really takes the steam out of any enemy! *laugh*
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MC23
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Post subject: ERC on Ulthw Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 2:58 am |
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| Quote (nealhunt @ 18 2005 Aug.,09:06) | We've all seen the Assault Marines bemoaned for exactly the same kinds of weaknesses outlined above, i.e. they are too fragile and the only way to get their points back is via an air assault and after that they are near worthless. SM players have practically begged for a way to bulk up the formation, but claims about Ulthwe are that the mini-formation is better.
There is a major disconnect somewhere. |
I've been pondering this point. With Space Marine Assualt Detatchments at 175 points, I can't see Eldar Aspects equaling that formation (although close). I just can't see going to up Aspect Troupe costs as it stands.
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yme-loc
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Post subject: ERC on Ulthw Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 6:10 pm |
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| Quote (MC23 @ 22 2005 Aug.,02:58) | | Quote (nealhunt @ 18 2005 Aug.,09:06) | We've all seen the Assault Marines bemoaned for exactly the same kinds of weaknesses outlined above, i.e. they are too fragile and the only way to get their points back is via an air assault and after that they are near worthless. ?SM players have practically begged for a way to bulk up the formation, but claims about Ulthwe are that the mini-formation is better.
There is a major disconnect somewhere. |
I've been pondering this point. With Space Marine Assualt Detatchments at 175 points, I can't see Eldar Aspects equaling that formation (although close). I just can't see going to up Aspect Troupe costs as it stands. |
I disagree and think aspect troupes are definetly worth 175pts and are infact much better than assault marines.
I am of the opinion that for the ulthwe list to be distinctive aspect troupes should be 175pts and limited to 1 per guardian or black guardian warhost.
If I am wrong the worst that happens is the troupes are a little overpriced and a slightly underused element of a list that should be focusing on guardians anyway.
Otherwise if the aspect troupes stay as they are I would just use this ulthwe list as a strategy 5 Biel-Tan list, at least I would up until my regular oponents banned me from using it.
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Chroma
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Post subject: ERC on Ulthw Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 8:56 pm |
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| Quote (yme-loc @ 24 2005 Aug.,18:10) | | Otherwise if the aspect troupes stay as they are I would just use this ulthwe list as a strategy 5 Biel-Tan list, at least I would up until my regular oponents banned me from using it. |
I've found, unless you're air-dropping them, the 4 stand Aspects are a bit like one-shot weapons. I tend to use Warp Spiders in Wave Serpents as my primary Aspect choice and, in their first attack, they do really well, but once they've taken a casualty or two they wither pretty quickly.
That said, I have been playing them at 175 points and feel I'm getting my points worth; depending on the Aspect I'll add two Wave Serpents or one Wave Serpent and two Falcons to the mix. I think the difference between a four stand Aspect Host and four Assault Marines is that the Aspect Warriors all have special abilities they can bring to bear *during* a fight, not just afterwards with TSKNF.
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MC23
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Post subject: ERC on Ulthw Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 3:23 am |
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| Quote (yme-loc @ 24 2005 Aug.,13:10) | | Otherwise if the aspect troupes stay as they are I would just use this ulthwe list as a strategy 5 Biel-Tan list, at least I would up until my regular oponents banned me from using it. |
For the record, saying you would is far different from saying you are (and successfully at that). In all the games I've played I've never had Ulthw? Aspects perform like Biel-Tan Aspects (and I've tried). The roles they are suited for are not the same. The idea of playing an Ulthw? list as a swordwind army goes counter to all the experience I've had with both armies.
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MC23
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Post subject: ERC on Ulthw Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 3:59 am |
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And to make sure this isn't being abused. I strongly urge everyone to use the experimental Engagement rule the limits the token engagement attacks. The Eldar was the army that really brought this tactic to the forefront so it needs to play with this limit the most. The principle change to the rulebook would be that formation casualties are resolved before any support fire from nearby formations are added. If either formation is wiped out there is no support fire. That means you can't have a troupe do a suicide run just to safely pull in support fire from a nearby formation. See 1.12.5 Resolve Assault (change) in EXPERIMENTALGAMERULESv2.pdf.
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yme-loc
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Post subject: ERC on Ulthw Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:29 pm |
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| Quote (MC23 @ 25 2005 Aug.,03:23) | | Quote (yme-loc @ 24 2005 Aug.,13:10) | | Otherwise if the aspect troupes stay as they are I would just use this ulthwe list as a strategy 5 Biel-Tan list, at least I would up until my regular oponents banned me from using it. |
For the record, saying you would is far different from saying you are (and successfully at that). In all the games I've played I've never had Ulthw? Aspects perform like Biel-Tan Aspects (and I've tried). The roles they are suited for are not the same. The idea of playing an Ulthw? list as a swordwind army goes counter to all the experience I've had with both armies. |
Fair enough, I still think with the flexibility they bring the aspect troupes should be 175pts and in background terms they should be limited to 1 per guardian warhost, but thats the last I'l say on the matter, i'll bow to your superior experience of the list.
So onto other matters, any idea when the next version of the list might go up in the vault, and looking beyond that whats the timescale for the ulthwe list becoming official.
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MC23
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Post subject: ERC on Ulthw Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2005 3:56 am |
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| Quote (yme-loc @ 25 2005 Aug.,14:29) | Fair enough, I still think with the flexibility they bring the aspect troupes should be 175pts and in background terms they should be limited to 1 per guardian warhost, but thats the last I'l say on the matter, i'll bow to your superior experience of the list.
So onto other matters, any idea when the next version of the list might go up in the vault, and looking beyond that whats the timescale for the ulthwe list becoming official. |
I won't say superior experience but it is a counter experience. I think there are a lot of give and take in the use and comparison between the Aspect Troupes and Host and I don't feel a pressing need to change the points at this time. Please feel free to prove me wrong (but you will have to tolerate my prodding results that don't match mine).
I'll try to give a final go ever on the changes I proposed here and turn in this latest version this weekend so we can hopefully see it up within a week. Hopefully the changes invoked in the Black Guardian points and composition weren't drastic enough to require long term investment in time (the bike option to mounted BG will have to be looked at closely). And Aspect Troupe cost will come under final review then too (if people say they can be abusive at this cost let's put that to the extreme test).
I pretty happy with the Black Guardians now. I think they have more character, fit their background better, and eliminated an unfitting and apparent abusive composition. And from that one early game result it shows promise than they can be used more as a main offensive force as well as a satisfactory response from the opposing player.
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