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Harlequin Grand Masque V4.2.3

 Post subject: Re: Harlequin Grand Masque V4.2.3
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:07 am 
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Ginger man,


About to roll out a game. Couple of quick questions we hope might be able to answer in time.

Harlequin Venom with holofield?
Jetbikes holofield?
Webway portals, can i double move out shoot and move back in?
Can mimes move out of a Webway and the back in and then teleport next turn?
What does the Death Jester sniper apply to, all FF attacks and shooting?

Not using all these but thought we would bring them up for next time.

Thanks

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 Post subject: Re: Harlequin Grand Masque V4.2.3
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:17 pm 
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Norto wrote:
Ginger man,


About to roll out a game. Couple of quick questions we hope might be able to answer in time.

Harlequin Venom with holofield?
If using v4.2.3, then the Venom has holofield (standard version of the rule). There is a mistake in the QRF
Quote:
Jetbikes holofield?
No. There is a mistake in the QRF.
Quote:
Webway portals, can i double move out shoot and move back in?
I had not thought about this possible option. Similar to assaulting out of a gate, and then consolidating back into it, let’s say yes for now, to see how effective / abusive this is.
Quote:
Can mimes move out of a Webway and the back in and then teleport next turn?
NO. When in ‘reserve’ (ie off table), a formation must be assigned to a means of entering the table, and may not be changed from one means to another. Similarly a formation may not exit into the Webway and return in a spacecraft or air transport.
Quote:
What does the Death Jester sniper apply to, all FF attacks and shooting?
Use the standard Sniper rules and FAQ.
Quote:
Not using all these but thought we would bring them up for next time.

Thanks
Sounds good. As before, I would be interested in views on which rules version you (and your opponent) prefer, specifically whether the you prefer the infantry to have 5+ INV (etc), or 5+ RA.


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 Post subject: Re: Harlequin Grand Masque V4.2.3
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:48 pm 
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Thanks ginger,

Only up to to half way through turn 3 so far. Had to pause for another day.

It's my first game with them so I'm pretty terrible. Not helping with bouncing off assaults. But strat 5 with triple retain felt pretty brutal to bring me back in the game turn 2. 3+ holofield seams pretty amazing on the venoms. Formations do seem pretty weak to FF and kinda expensive but. More games will tell.

Got our heads around most of the rules. They are pretty cool but could be to many. Laughing god was fun. I'm not sure how opponents like guard and that rallying at an additional -1 or activating on a 3+. Webways were a heap of fun. Consolidating back in. Could be rude though in the hands of a top tier player.

Will get it finished and posted up for you hopefully next week.

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 Post subject: Re: Harlequin Grand Masque V4.2.3
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:37 pm 
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Yeah it's an interesting game for sure.

Wanted to comment of the Veil of Tears like it is in Grand Masque. As I thought, there would be situations where you don't really want to use it. Norto engaged a bunch of Praetorians (3+ armour w. inv save) and had great problems killing the last two since they were "locked" by the VoT ability. There's also the issue of what happens when a unit is engaged to a "locked" unit in CC... It's not hyper clear whether they use CC or FF in the ensuing combat. It also seems a bit strange that Harlequins don't hit guys that are paralyzed.

I thought the Harlequin God worked pretty OK, it's not super easy to keep him going through the entire battle. Maybe that he can only be placed within LoS from a Harlequin unit? I also think the Eldar player should be forced to choose between the Avatar and Chegorath when doing the list, and not be able to use both.

Being able to consolidate or move back into a portal seems OK to me. There's always the risk of being locked into the portal (which nearly happened to Norto). Might be worth to clarify that Harlequins don't prevent non-harlequins from using the portal as normal if the Harlequins happen to go through it first.

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 Post subject: Re: Harlequin Grand Masque V4.2.3
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:56 am 
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Thanks for the comments guys.
A summary of the list design philosophy is that Harlequins are generally better that standard Aspects, so the formations should be more expensive, but also limited in various ways (covered by their abilities, the special rules and limitations in their numbers etc).
Equally these are the “circus” of the Eldar worlds, highly skilled, but also clowns or jokers - the following rules are intentionally quirky for that reason.

The Laughing God is a double edged sword. It helps the Harlequins and hinders the opponent (some more than others), but it also indicates the focus of Harlequin effort, allowing the enemy to plan on ways to counter the strategy (like piling in reserves to swamp the Harlies, or vacating the area).
BUT, Cegorach is only available to a Harlequin Grand Masque, where there are more Harlequin formations than other Eldar.

Veil of Tears is more subtle, and does several things.
  • It temporarily reduces the size of the enemy formation.
  • It allows the Harlequins to exclude key enemy units
  • It also provides a mechanism to answer the conundrum of how there are survivors to tell tales about the massacre by Harlequin assaults.
Providing the Shadowseer is not killed, the affected enemy units are completely excluded from the assault; they don’t fight, cannot be attacked and are immune to hackdowns (though they will be removed if the formation is destroyed by being broken twice). However the Shadowseer must be positioned carefully (usually to one side) to avoid him robbing the formation of its assault targets.
NOTE:-
As currently written, the Shadowseer affects all combats around him, including those where he is in support of a different assault. This enhances the otherwise minimal support given by Harlequin formations.

Mrdiealot wrote:
Wanted to comment of the Veil of Tears like it is in Grand Masque. As I thought, there would be situations where you don't really want to use it. Norto engaged a bunch of Praetorians (3+ armour w. inv save) and had great problems killing the last two since they were "locked" by the VoT ability. There's also the issue of what happens when a unit is engaged to a "locked" unit in CC... It's not hyper clear whether they use CC or FF in the ensuing combat. It also seems a bit strange that Harlequins don't hit guys that are paralyzed.
Units that are B-B with a ‘locked’ enemy can use their FF value to fight another target, including the Shadowseer.

If you don’t want the Shadowseer to affect the combat, merely leave him outside 15cm of the enemy.

QUESTION:- Should he have ‘scout’ to facilitate this?
(It so, the Great Harlequin would also need ‘scout’ as he becomes a Shadowseer when near Cegorach)

Quote:
I thought the Harlequin God worked pretty OK, it's not super easy to keep him going through the entire battle. Maybe that he can only be placed within LoS from a Harlequin unit? I also think the Eldar player should be forced to choose between the Avatar and Chegorath when doing the list, and not be able to use both.
The LoS constraint is unnecessary given the way it flags the Harlequin strategic intentions.
The list already forces the choice between Cegorach and the Avatar, depending on which army is leading, and which is the ‘ally’. Cegorach is only available to a Grand Masque, while the Avatar is only available to other Eldar.

Quote:
Being able to consolidate or move back into a portal seems OK to me. There's always the risk of being locked into the portal (which nearly happened to Norto). Might be worth to clarify that Harlequins don't prevent non-harlequins from using the portal as normal if the Harlequins happen to go through it first.
good spot, though I thought that was already inferred.

Did you try to ‘Hit-and-run’ out and back in again, to shoot something?
Is that too cheesy?


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 Post subject: Re: Harlequin Grand Masque V4.2.3
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:57 am 
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Ok, I have corrected the list on p1. version 4.2.3.a

  • I have clarified the use of the Grand Masque
  • Clarified the Initiative of the formations
  • Made the use of Veil of Tears optional
  • Added Farsight to the Great Harlequin (He is a Shadowseer as well)
  • Corrected the Venom stats in the QRF
  • Corrected the Jetbike stats on the QRF sheet
I have left the name "Veil of Tears" for now, though 'Dance of shadows' would also be cool.

Please let me know if you see any more issues with the list.

Also, I do wonder whether "Veil of Tears" is a bit weak, so could you consider whether Veil of Tears paralysing D3+1 enemy is too much.


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 Post subject: Re: Harlequin Grand Masque V4.2.3
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:04 am 
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Hello all,

I'm a late comer to this thread. In fact, I'm a late comer to EA but a long time lover of Eldar Harlequins.

I've enjoyed reading the development here and while I don't want to drop in an unhelpful tuppence worth, I thought I might stick my oar in anyway!

I'm pretty fluff orientated generally and though I would like to get to a point where I can compete with an army (I'm playing Saim-Hann against my one semi-regular opponent and getting beaten most times) I do think that the Harlequins are the last place I would look for a balanced list.

I think it is good to have the Quins as a list separate to the other Eldar lists and it should definitely be limited, both in scale and effectiveness, they are specialists after all. I have played two games using Harlequins as allies with Biel Tan (3k games with 1.5k HQ contingent) and have managed to make them pretty devastating, the flip (hur-hur) side is that I haven't managed to win with them on the table. This would not put me off using them though as I think the idea of Harlequins has always been more appealing than their effectiveness.

I haven't really enough experience of the game to be able to offer a useful opinion on what might make them balanced on the table but I am really happy to be able to field them at all!

So, great work here, I'll feed back as often as I can on whatever games I manage to play with them.

One thing that did come back to me, though I'm sure no-one will thank me for this, is that in their initial iteration (RT), the Harlequins could field vehicles from any army list with the proviso that they would always breakdown on the roll of a 6!

As I said, excellent work.

I hope this message is more encouraging rather than infuriating!


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 Post subject: Re: Harlequin Grand Masque V4.2.3
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:00 am 
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Thanks for reading up on the development and for the comments.
If you are starting out in E:A, there are much easier ways to go about it. Typically we advise starting situé core lists (marines, orks, Imperial guard) to pick up the rules and tactics before moving on to more esoteric lists.

Like many top grade lists, a well structured Biel Tan list in capable hands can be devastating (witness the extensive debates on the subject), so there is an argument that we should develop a separate “Harlequin list” that is totally stand-alone as it should be easier to ‘balance’’. The original list produced by Sotec was indeed stand-alone, but so OTT that it never really appealed or got supported. This is now the fourth attempt (I think), but is possibly more ‘fluff oriented’ than absolutely necessary.

Hopefully this version gives the right feel for Harlies making lightning fast assaults. However the intention is for the list to work best in combination with other Eldar forces rather than in total isolation. In that sense, they become an alternative to aspect formations albeit more potent in fer the right circumstances.

Do let us know the details of your battles, including the builds, the opponents highlights and problems, etc


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 Post subject: Re: Harlequin Grand Masque V4.2.3
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:10 pm 
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Thanks Ginger. Yes, I probably should have started simpler than diving straight in with millions of jetbikes, possibly I'm a slow learner!

I'll definitely come back with some more detail on the next game I roll out the Harlequins.

Keep up the good work.

Cheers!


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