I'm up for a swop if they want to. (Think E&C wants a go with the Marines first)

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To chip in on the proposed changes, along with the points increase to the VS there are similar increases proposed to Rangers, Nightspinners, Firestorm and Avatar, and return WarWalkers to 200 points. Together with reducing the warhost : support ratio to 1:2, the main intention is apparently to reduce the BT capability for high activation armies.

I'd like to share my experiences of how to beat eldar as they might help testing:

Blast Markers - never pass up the opportunity to lay a BM on Eldar, even if it is with an AP weapon against an AT target or your doubling to do so.

Rallying - never pass up the opportunity to end your turn within 30cm of an Eldar unit for the -1 it gives for rallying.

Present as many threats and juicy targets as possible to Eldar players as possible, it's confusing, it allows you some control over the Eldar player and they can only take advantage of so many opportunities at a time before you hit back.

Get close and stay close, yes they're in shooting range and can engage but you are too!

Intermingle - get as much into combats as possible for the atracks and outnumbering, even if you think you'll loose, Eldar can't handle the attrition or loosing engagements.

Against webway portals and jet bikes put you objectives in terrain to force terrain tests.

When making your list include a space craft, aircraft, and two good garrisons which can shoot.

On the how to beat eldar list, I'd also add. If their BTS is an aspect unit and starting on board go after it with avengeance. 8 strong infantry units without fearless are very killable. Of course your opponent can wait you out with their high activation count but if you have good counter assaults set up (or as Rug says have sufficient power to cripple the assaulting unit) then this does much the same. If you're a high strategy rating army this works even better as the eldar player can't confidently bring the BTS forward if you can get in and attack it next turn!

I also take a similar approach to trying to kill farseers, especially if the avatar has yet to make an appearance!

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That's what happened when I tested mics list, spears BTS got broken by spacecraft barrage then killed by hack downs from ground attaching t hawks

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And likewise when, ridiculously, I beat Dpdexys's Saim Hann with the utterly rubbish Skitarri army I took to Leicester a couple of years ago - Majoris barrage broke BTS t-bolts finished it off - and that's a tougher BTS then 8 aspects as has wave serpents.

The other big plus on this is you usually get the supreme commander as well and then follow Rug to BM anything you can and let doom of the eldar activation failure take over.

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And I would add that if you are out activated, put some shooting formations on OW. While the Eldar can hit and run, they will have to break cover to do it and your formations can then shoot.

Hi Everyone,
Cool thanks for the information…on how to beat the pointy ears…..Although most of it, sound like common cents to me…


The main purpose is to reduce the BT capability for high activation armies. I don’t have problem with the SoV been 6 strong and rarely is it seen here in Australia, although it does show up now again...

Well I would say no…Then again they could have and not done any Battle reports, so we be none the wiser…. I had plan to do a game using air assault list against Jim using mic list, but RL has gotten in the way. Also there side of me that believe I should not have do to all the bloody Testing.

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Regards
Greg

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Not against change, so long as it done fairly and no one is left behind....

I'm human and not a !@#$%^# Robot..

This last post is the most telling

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My first thought reading your last report Tim was it was a bit risky and you got a bit of luck to win strategy and activate three support formations. Worth attempting perhaps to knock out the activations but about a 1 in 3 chance of doing that I'd say.

Agree with rug about the changes affecting guardians in wave serpents. Don't see that a 350 point formation should be out in the same basket as the 150 one in terms of unlocking support slots. That's why I suggested to split the options into separate formation types.

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Maybe because we are sick of banging our heads against the wall with taccoms every year when we make these points.
Maybe we are just burnt out. We have a large club, we know a lot of people who play epic who take one look at the arguing on taccoms and the attitude and just go "no thanks"

No disrespect to you Greg, you do stellar work with pumping out reports, but I'd love to see you make it to a tourney one day to see how Eldar are really getting played at these events

Did play game with Apoc last night, he was using my tau for the first time. Was a dual spinner+scorpion list, but with aspects in wave serpents and a vampire. Lost strategy turn 1 but spaceship only did 1 damage each of the spinners, so he had to use the barracudas to break one. The other one only managed a few BMs on broadsides. Falcons only killed 1 recon, scorpion missed hammerheads and then took 2DC from piranhas on sustain. Was looking OK for the tau but the game was won for eldar by winning strategy for turns 2 and 3. There's no coming back from triple activation assaults in two turns, this was on top of the BTS aspects using a T1 assault on recons to springboard forward into range of broadsides for turn 2. He started to get the hang of markerlights but too late, and in the end not much of the tau got to shoot unsurpressed at the right targets mostly due to terrain and suboptimal markerlights placement. It was too easy to avoid tetras or destroy them without having to enter ML range, and avoid overwatch through terrain shadow. I also didn't fail any critical activations at all. Game was called in T3, would probably have been 3/4-0 depending if a few piranhas could survive a void spinner to contest an objective.

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Yep every year you do the same thing…....say there’s a problem and give no prof to prove it. This one area that really frustrating to see, guys saying there an issue and finding you don’t get one Bloody batrep to prove their point… I have ask for this on FB before and 12 months have pass roughly and were are still in the same boat about the Bloody Eldar BT…….As it is Ginger start the thread on “which army is overpowered” …. Proved interesting and far as I’m concern proved the point about having Batreps…The UK went to their data base and we went, NOW-WHERE, since we didn’t have any data....If we had the Batreps, then I image they would have look each report and saw and understood better, want the concerns are.

As the saying goes” IT HERE SAY ON THE INTERNET, TILL YOU PROVE IT”

So how about taking some of the suggestion and trying them out, on Mic List, and better still do another game and swap sides and get Mic to run non Eldar…. Oh Batreps would be nice. The sad thing is you are large club, and have the resources to really do some amazing Batreps, look at Steve ones…I think it great to see. I’m sure you can organized it so that each month at the club, that couple take notes and pictures and one of the player that played the game types it up…..To put you in the picture, my small group.. I take pictures, organized half tables used, write reports and organized half armies too, all that for 148 games last year…So you guys should be able to do 1/3 of that and no one should be burn out from writing reports..



I got one, I’m going to and yes it Briscon…I’m not taking Eldar, I own a person some test games, to help out with his list, since he was kind enough to play-test for me last year…So I’m hoping to see the Eldar in action…yeah it won’t be Mic, but hey, touch wood, I’m hoping to get to CA17, so long as really life doesn’t get in the way..

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Regards
Greg

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Not against change, so long as it done fairly and no one is left behind....

I'm human and not a !@#$%^# Robot..

You mean when experienced players challenge your claims on too powerfull/too weak lists, then offer tactical advice to deal with your problems and even do battle reports trying your issues out??

You guys report issues that are not shared by most European players. The European players offer counter-arguments that are very thorough anfd point out the holes in your lists (not using lots of air assaults and/or spaceships in this case).

You don't try theese out and make any battle reports to prove your point. The NetEA lists is used all over the globe. Any changes made to them affects all of us. Of course we need to critizie and try things out before we change!! Thats the most scientific way of doing this.

Instead you state "We have a large club, we know alot". Well, if that is the argument you want to use I'll do the same. We are way more players than you, we play tournaments more often (this is especially true for EpicUK!). We know way more about list building and tactis (judging from seeing your tournament lists which are competetive sub-par in many cases).

So, as people have stated before a few times, have you guys even entertained the possibility of this being a player related problem instead of a broken list??

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Mard, I'm sure it's not intentional but this seems a bit full on. We've had multiple people now (Steve54, Dan1314, Kyrt and particularly Tiny-Tim) playtest the list concerned about in tournament and friendly environments (with different results to the ones we were told to expect). People are recognising the concerns raised but its fair to say there isn't consensus. We all want a rule set which works but as PFE points out these things need to be tested and retested. Not acknowledging your concerns would be to simply say - UK, Euro & US tournament results show this isn't an issue so we're not even going to look at it!

As for the I'm in a big club so know better line - we've got 16 odd epic players in CLWC alone - it doesn't mean anything. Ginger's probably our most experienced player and he (playing as biel tann) got tabled by Dan1314 (who basically only plays against 2 other people & his cat due to there not being a big scene in Scotland) in a tournament last year. Likewise, Scotland finishing second in last year's team championship (ahead of teams with 2-300 tournament games combined in their line up) when I was the only regular tournament player in the team. Good players are good players regardless of location. Also PFE has obviously given a lot of thought to list building over the years which is a separate skill in its own right.

Can we all just try and focus on resolving the issues at hand. I appreciate it may feel like progress is too slow for some people and too fast for others but what we're looking for is a reasonable consensus so we don't end up creating even more problems further down the line.

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