Even full batreps aren't totally necessary.

"We tried out x tactic in y games and x tactic didn't work" would be useful.

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I think before we start trying out suggested fixes, we should really continue and establish whether the list is actually overpowered, there is very little consensus on the issue from various groups, the cancon area guys are in the overpowered camp (I hesitate to say 'Australians' as there doesn't seem to be the same outcry from the Perth area group) but it seems that the NEAT crowd, most of the european groups, and a good chunk of UK players are saying it's fine

Tiny-Tim has played multiple test games and attended a tournament using a 'power build' list, he's batrepped the lot, Steve54 has played a couple of games too, with what I would say are inconclusive results at best

before we start playing test games of any potential solution, I think we really need to reach some kind of consensus on whether the list is overpowered or not first

also on the hit and run changes, it's been 8 days since it was first suggested.... give it time, we can't all play 5 games a week....

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PFE I think most people get that the proposal is a 10-20cm consolidate. I still think it's a total non starter for the damage it does to wave serpent and warlock lists.

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From my perspective, I struggle with imposing the various changes proposed to fix a problem that I have not experienced and do not fully understand. Don't get me wrong, I accept that there is a community that finds the BT overpowered, it's just that I struggle to see how amending the consolidate move will prevent the BT player from using the triple retain to shoot three 'defenceless' targets.

Mic says higher up in the thread that he sees assaults as more of a gamble than shooting, so evidently the VS is a key pert of this, and has nothing to do with consolidation after an assault - unless I am missing something fundamental here.

Basically I think it would be helpful to understand in what respect the BT are felt to be OP. Is it the firepower, the assaults, the formation numbers, what?
And is this a complete concensus about the list, or just some builds from this list in the hands of certain players?

Wouldn't it be a workable solution to ban Eldar entries explicitly for one (and only one) year and then use that year to work out a solution for how you want your BT lists to work?

That would give you a clear timeframe to get the work done.
It would jive with your terrain conventions.
It would give you a fast solution to your problem. (well 1 year but that is as fast as things tend to go in epic terms)
And finally it would not interfere with those who seem to think the list is fine where most of them seem to come from outside of Aus.

From what i get from pretty much all the posts on here is that us guys having a problem with beil tan down here is that it isnt beil tan its the players. So you your pretty much saying we are all terrible players with out seeing us play. Im not the greatest play, i accept it.

I had alot of practice coming up to cancon with a mate and it was always against his beil tan list. I thought it was just him being a better player that i lost 80 - 90% of the time. I tried a fair few different lists and pretty much every game id get pounded by voids or scorpions predding blast markers everywhere while he out activated and march his spears into 50 or a formation and guardians in wave serpents to another. If he got the strat roll it was 3 activations later and the game was nearly always lost. Id try and drop templates on the felcones always only touching 2 so odds say i hit 1 then he has a 30% chance to save it. If i went for the spears id again only touch 3 or so hitting 1 or 2 and then saving 50%. so usually around 1 or 2 blasts.

The only success i had was with the viorla list i took to cancon with 4 sets of aircraft and a spaceship. Not ideal for getting big wins with only 7 ground formations. Wasnt a great lists for all comers. Copped Gargants twice and it was a struggle to kick them off objectives. Copped Steel legion with a heap of ground AA. I had to try and tailor my list to take on all comers and to try and survive against aa couple of well played beil tan lists.

After going to cancon and hearing from Mic, most likely our best player in aus and the player of beil tan that won the comp say that he thinks beil tan are too good and they need toning down a bit. That kinda says to me that they need a nerf.

Steve (another consistant tourny winner) also said he hasnt seen mic have a better win loss ratio with any other army compared to his beil tan.

Going to tournaments here is a long treck. I drove 9 hours to canberra for Cancon. Was a great event and heaps of great guys there. Having the player of the army that you lost to tell you he thinks they are OP, kinda come home feeling robbed. All that practise the massive drive there accomodation. Then to come home and bring up the situation on taccoms and be shut down like we are all just terrible players kinda puts a crap feeling on playing epic.

What would happen if your best player in your comp played a list and won a tourny and said they were OP in your countrys. Would you feel the same. Hoestly i dont think you guys are playing them the best. The was Mic does. Hes super patient with them and i dont think he would have done many assaults unitl turn 3.

Spaceships are a hit or miss, putting stuff on overwatch can be counted with just blasting them with disprupt art or 75cm macros. space marines yeah. you have a strat 5 so odds say your getting turn which hurts beil tan. trying to get blasts on them is fine if you have the range and your not giving up a formation for a few blasts. if you have the range then you probably have a lower strat and you gona be countered.

Until Mics proven wrong im on his side. I feel hes too good a player to be wrong.



EDIT: just want to put this in here so people dont think i have tickets on myself.

Going to tournaments here is a long treck. I drove 9 hours to canberra for Cancon. Was a great event and heaps of great guys there. Having the player of the army that you lost to tell you he thinks they are OP, kinda come home feeling robbed. All that practise the massive drive there accomodation. Then to come home and bring up the situation on taccoms and be shut down like we are all just terrible players kinda puts a crap feeling on playing epic.

when i say robbed i mean of a fare tournament. not that i was robbed of winning. Mic or someone would have beaten me anyway.

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This is why those batrepping and engagement here is needed. The rest of the geographies are having trouble nailing this thing down and need to see it. Honestly I think it'd be a whole crap easier to get mic, you, a few others observing a vassal game with a Skype chat and knock it out vs circular debating, lack of clarity, and poking in the dark ideas in the other thread as it's hard to from but wanted to be. I'd suspect there's a few "oh" moments all around. Internet forums are to clear communication what AIDS is to humans.

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id love mic to get on vassal but hes never has the time supporting a family in this day and age. Ive only played Mic once so its hard to write up bat reps. Id do one up our mine and his game but its hard to remember when your concentrating on the game to write stuff down. Also i made a big mistake turn 2 which wouldnt help the cause. I did have pretty good first turn. He done 2 dc to 2 supremacys and killed them off with ranges later. And i cleared his scout screen (all stands), killed a scorpion and took off both voids turn 1 and still had all my formations pretty far away from him. If i was playing any other army after getting that lucky i feel like i should have a been on the front foot but i was still sitting on the back foot with what was still left in his army. The only decent cover on the table was in range for his guardians to get to and unleash a avatar. It failed hard but i still gave up a firewarrior unit trying to take out the farseer to keep him at bay. didnt pay off. So i pretty much lost a FW formation and risked losing/breaking a riptides formation to a free unit. This is why it gets frustrating to try and point out they have so many good options.

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I have 4 laptops in this room and cannot play a pixel pushing tabletop simulator on any of them.

I'm not quite sure that is what we are saying, or at least I am saying. I do suspect that you have a difficult combination of very good BT players and an unfortunate meta. However I might be wrong.

Could it be that there's a level of disconnect stemming from this? Does an army designed and played to counter these Biel-Tan lists struggle against many other lists out there, while a list intended as an all-comers list caries a number of formations that the troublesome Biel-Tan force can prey on and pull out their advantages more easily. It's not the whole issue, obviously, but is that worth taking into account on the back of tournament all-comers data?

I agree that seeing a vassal game or two, against a few different lists, played out by some of the Aussies that have experienced the problems and documented by observers, is going to provide a massive amount of useful feedback and possibly even one or two eureka moments. It cannot possibly be a bad thing to try that, and to get this fixed in a stable and meaningful way I think the first step is to get everybody on board and on the same page. That'll do that. In the long run the all-round effort to put in a foundation of mutual understanding is worth it.

I agree to establishing consensus and agree to the idea of playtesting changes.
I support the proposed changes the points increase for void spinners and night spinners 275/300 and 200 respectively.
I also am supportive of normal restrictions on retain activations as in +1 each time you activate.
I think those two smallish changes would suffice to bring the eldar in line.
I played mics army and had a draw 1-0 to mic, and 825-850 to me on points.
My last was 3 sht coys with shadowswords and 2 stormswords,
2 salamanders with commander
2 manticore btys
1 death strike
2 hydra platoons
2 warhounds (ind)

We habe played several times before and I've always one ( and only one game through blatant cheating).
The game was so rifht because i managed to get the first two turns priority and wreck fave with the manticores and death srrikes.
But overall it was a close game. The eldar list is tough but not unbeatable. I just think there are a few units that could do woth adjusting.

Pfee and i are planning a game. Im a better player than mic, no doubt in the world. But he is better than eldar than me. No doubt in the multiverse.

Maybe mic could suggest how he would build a list with Void spinners at 275/300 and night spinners @ 200.
Cheers
Jim

If Mic doesn't have time to spare maybe you could give Vassal a go yourself some time and post up a battle report? You use the Eldar list that Mic uses or is believed to the most powerful build. Play versus one of the better players in the UK (I don't qualify), using a list that some here suggest would be good at countering Eldar (while being a general all comers tournament list). It would be interesting to see the different tactics and playstyles and if it could help get a better understanding on both sides.

I like the proposals to increased artillery costs and additional +1 to second retain.

I think the BT are a top tier list which are balanced overall but in the hands of a top player who picks a list which supports their strengths, they can feel unbeatable. So many options for a great tactician to exploit, their win rate rises exponentially with player skill.

I'll take the uk vassall challenge. Norto is a hatchling! I'm a veritable sexual tyrannosaurus!

I think vassal games between our great communities would be a good way of building digital, if not actual bridges.