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Fir Iolarion List 4.2.2

 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion List 4.2.2
PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 3:42 pm 
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The CCW/FF Knights are of more utility than the ranged attack knights because if you want a shooty support formation Revenants are better for the same cost (in most situations) - better range, basic speed, and to-hit stat. Perhaps increase to 3+ to hit?

The CCW/FF Knights themselves look good on paper, and provide a niche role lacking in a list mostly composed of Revenants. I've been trying to activate them last in the turn to triple into engagement range of something that's already activated, then engage as first action the following turn.

In practice this hasn't worked especially well for me as they're vulnerable to attacks after they've moved forwards, doesn't take huge firepower to kill 1 and break them with a BM, and they need a 3+ to activate the following turn if they survive, so I've only managed an active engagement once so far I think (Tim engaged them once with a Warhound while they were broken, also).

I'm considering trying out Knights with one in the formation having a gun and a shield, since the CCW isn't seeing much action. The shield is a must-have at the moment, and I'd still want some CCW as they act as a deterrent to air assaults or teleporters.

Taking more than 1 formation of them is out of the question at Initiative 2+. Too much need for the re-roll in the end phase to risk too many failed orders.

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion List 4.2.2
PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 3:46 pm 
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Addendum, I'm enjoying using the CCW/D-Cannon Phantom, but I'm not convinced it's as good as the 2xCCW Phantom.

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion List 4.2.2
PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:24 pm 
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should the knights be 1+ init?

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion List 4.2.2
PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 10:08 pm 
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Thanks E&C. I tend to agree with you. It is very hard to compete with a 2x CCW Phantom at 3k. From my play experience the only remedy that presents itself is limiting it to 0-1 as in the other Eldar lists.

Kyrt: I've considered that but need more playtesting before enacting what I'm calling the Iron Warrior method.


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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion List 4.2.2
PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:17 am 
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Problem is, realistically, it's not going to be a 0-1 choice. It'll be a '1' choice. It's just better than the other free wweapons, especially in the context of this list's strategic needs.

Dropping hull cost and increasing the CCW cost might work to incentivize dual-gun outfits?

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion List 4.2.2
PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:18 am 
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I'd probably like the Knights a lot more if they were init 1+ and consider taking more than 1 formation of them.

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion List 4.2.2
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 1:35 am 
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That's what I figure on both points. The challenge before us is what to do to make taking 2 battle titans worthwhile as well as balancing the weapons so you don;t always need CC phantoms.


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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion List 4.2.2
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 2:09 am 
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Battle report here:
viewtopic.php?f=84&t=32443

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion List 4.2.2
PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 2:09 pm 
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Played another game last week versus EUK Blood Angels.

===============

My list was:

Phantom with Supreme Commander. 1x CCW, 1x D-Cannon
Revenant Pair with Pulsars

Revenant with Pulsars
Revenant with Sonic Lances
Knight formation 1x CCW & Shield, 2x Gun & Shield
War Walkers

================

Another win, though I can't remember how much by, 2-0 maybe?

His air assaults failed (they weren't helped by a couple of bad choices on his part) and I got lucky with some saves, resulting in a quick and brutal game.

============

Thoughts on the Knights.

While I wouldn't take more than 1 formation due to their initiative, on the other hand, they're probably a bit too good.

One thing we have discussed is potentially changing the stats:

- Drop the basic Invulnerable save from the hull.
- Reduce the Shield's Invulnerable save down to 5+
- Maybe increase the gun's hit stat from 4+ to 3+ to make it more attractive.
- Shouldn't the Scatter Laser be 2x Scatter Lasers?

I understand it's got "jump" status in the new 40k rules, FWIW.

=====

On the basic list balance, I'm changing from viewing the list as potentially underpowered to potentially overpowered - but pretty much only for one or two list styles.

I don't think a list with multiple big Titans is likely to be viable - the way to win is to to take a single Phantom (or maybe a Warlock, if you're okay with having no Supreme Commander and the smaller fighter squadron in exchange for the Psychic Lance) max out on Revenants & Knights, and spend the last few points on War Walkers & a fighter squadron.

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion List 4.2.2
PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:08 pm 
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Yep agreed that this style of list is on the only viable one. Which might be bit of a problem. Of course I tend to play 4K so can more big chaps with that extra 1K.

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion List 4.2.2
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 9:22 pm 
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Observed another game last week- blood angels against Eldar again. The Eldar won I think 2-0, and I remember precisely zero of what happened in the game other than two Thunderhawks died to critical hits, so we fudged the second one and said the Thunderhawk survived, and the Eldar won anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion List 4.2.2
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 9:42 pm 
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Played another game today, I had Guard and Tim used my usual Titan list. All knights were armed with gun and shield.

I won 2-0 on turn 3. Would have been 3-0 but the pesky Phantom with no shield and 1dc survived my Thunderbolts' attack run. He conversely would have pushed to turn 4 if my Reaver had lost one more DC and broken when he sustained fire at it in crossfire with a Revenant pair.

The knights passed something like 15 saves and only lost 2dc at one point. Eventually they ended up broken just from formations putting BMs on them, and then didn't rally.

My list was:

Reg HQ w. Hydra
Inf co
Inf co

Sentinels
Hydras
Storm Troopers w Valkyries
Deathstrikes (hit his shields)
Rough Riders
Baneblade

Thunderbolts
Reaver

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion List 4.2.2
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:38 pm 
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Thanks E&C. I got a game in today and will get the rep up later. Titans vs Steel Legion with 2-0 for the Guard on Turn 4.

I am working on 4.2.4 right now.


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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion List 4.2.2
PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 3:28 am 
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4.2.3 is ready. I'll be starting a new thread for it.


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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion List 4.2.2
PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 4:36 am 
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Ok thread locked due to new thread been started here

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=32534

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