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Fir Iolarion List 4.2.2

 Post subject: Fir Iolarion List 4.2.2
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 2:45 pm 
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Previous Thread for 4.2

Here is my first revision of the Eldar titan list as AC.

Dropped
    Guardians
    Avatar

Added
    Wraith Knights (as Yme-loc)
    Wraithguard with Wraithblade upgrade

Moved
    Revenant Twins move to Warhosts at 0-1 per Phantom

Misc Changes
    Renamed Titan Autarch to Bonesinger to be consistent with other lists. Reduced cost to 50 points.
    Reformatted point costs to begin at the Biel-tan costs with those weapons.
    Reduced allowed troupes to 2 per warhost
    Spirit stones removed from single Revenant

Look it over and let me know what you think.


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netea Fir Iolarion Titan Clan 4.2.3.pdf [454.31 KiB]
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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion List 4.2.2
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 4:04 pm 
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Looking good, I'll have a battle report for you at the weekend.

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion List 4.2.2
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 7:00 pm 
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Is it intentional that the warlock can't be the bonesinger?

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion List 4.2.2
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 8:04 pm 
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StevekCole wrote:
Is it intentional that the warlock can't be the bonesinger?


Yes. It is.


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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion List 4.2.2
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 11:18 pm 
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So had a game, I was assuming that I could take Bonesinger and Extarch on my Phantom talked my opponent E&C about it and he had no problems. (had 50 points spare so decided too put Extarch on Phantom, which meant I had two BTS's) I went for,
==================================================
WARLOCK TITAN [850]
1 Warlock Titan, Psychic Lance, Power Fist
PHANTOM TITAN [850]
1 Phantom Titan, Titan Pulsar, Power Fist, Bonesinger, Extarch
WRAITHKNIGHT TROUPE [375]
3 Wraith Knights
WRAITHKNIGHT TROUPE [375]
3 Wraith Knights
WARWALKER TROUPE [200]
6 War Walkers
WARWALKER TROUPE [200]
6 War Walkers
WRAITHSHIP [150]

My initial thoughts, muses and my fellow players comments. The list has a better build with the titans less expensive and the one twin revenant warhost per phantom. I like the addition of wraith knight although the 5 up triple save is a little cumbersome (T-T suggested just giving them holofields and dropping the reinforced armour and invulnerable save), on a 40K game point the wraith knight usually drops one of its wraithcannons for the invulnerable save (now does it have two wraithcannons or one wrathcannon with two shots?). But the addition of the knights I reckon (and our playing group reckon) makes the wraithguard/wraithlord formations sort of redundant mainly because they can't summon the avatar but also they lack any form of delivery.
About the warlock its good and well worth its points, however in this list I would take a phantom over it because I can squeeze a few more points to buy other stuff. As I see it (and our playing group reckon) the only reason too take the warlock is for the farsight retain with out -1 and because the army has so few activations (which is the way it should be) you not going to double retain anyway.
Does the Bonesinger need the invulnerable save?

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion List 4.2.2
PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 11:33 pm 
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Oh yeah I think I know the answer but do the wraith knights count as titans (for the 1+ initiative).

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion List 4.2.2
PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 12:07 am 
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Consul Avenging Angel wrote:

My initial thoughts, muses and my fellow players comments. The list has a better build with the titans less expensive and the one twin revenant warhost per phantom. I like the addition of wraith knight although the 5 up triple save is a little cumbersome (T-T suggested just giving them holofields and dropping the reinforced armour and invulnerable save), on a 40K game point the wraith knight usually drops one of its wraithcannons for the invulnerable save (now does it have two wraithcannons or one wrathcannon with two shots?).


As written it has 2 cannons with 1 shot each. I'm planning to follow the lead of the Yme-loc list in regards to their basic stats though alternate weapon load-outs are always possible.

Quote:
But the addition of the knights I reckon (and our playing group reckon) makes the wraithguard/wraithlord formations sort of redundant mainly because they can't summon the avatar but also they lack any form of delivery.


They have the webway and they outperform the Knights in an assault. Granted that doesn't matter so much if you can't get them where you need them. I'm planning to use them in my game this weekend so I'll see how it goes.

Quote:
About the warlock its good and well worth its points, however in this list I would take a phantom over it because I can squeeze a few more points to buy other stuff. As I see it (and our playing group reckon) the only reason too take the warlock is for the farsight retain with out -1 and because the army has so few activations (which is the way it should be) you not going to double retain anyway.
Does the Bonesinger need the invulnerable save?


I usually try to get a double retain in at least once a game. If nothing else my opponents have to remember to fear Eldar movement shenanigans. ^-^

The Bonesinger has the Invulnerable save for consistency. I can't say if it needs it since it hasn't been played much.

Consul Avenging Angel wrote:
Oh yeah I think I know the answer but do the wraith knights count as titans (for the 1+ initiative).


They do not.


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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion List 4.2.2
PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 1:37 am 
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Thanks for the games guys and feed back..

I see the wraithguard/wraithlord as blitz guard and hopefully this would free up the Titans to go hunting..Plus you have the wraith-gate...

The bone singer is the same stats as the UK one, which is were the Yme-loc borrowed it from.. :)

So the Wraith Knights saves hasn't been to much of problem, in the games I have played in, but i like to see a few more games yet..though alternate weapon load-outs is of interest..

Hopefully will get a game in at some point... :)

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion List 4.2.2
PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 3:54 am 
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I don't have any list feedback, but just want to share this with any who don't know the Wraithknight's 40k options:
They can take 2 single-shot (per turn) Wraithcannons with no inv. save (the current Epic model, mostly)
Or a rapid-fire plasma cannon equivalent with an invulnerable save
Or a decent combat sword with an invulnerable save
All variants can also have up to 2 secondary weapons- scatter lasers, bright lances and the like.


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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion List 4.2.2
PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 9:33 am 
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I'm going to stick mostly to internal balance and theme thoughts over external balance right now as I don't want to draw too many external balance conclusions from our game yesterday.

We thought the D cannon seems better than the Fusion Lance at the same cost. Is there scope for giving it an extra FF attack or something to make it better, kinda like an AMTL melta cannon? Would that fit the theme of the gun? Or just make it a Free gun choice?

I like the new knights. I agreed that they seem more useful than the Wraithguard formation for the same points (especially with the Avatar gone). With so few activations most of your army needs to be on the attack rather than held back. Should it have the inv. Save if it's not the config with the shield? An alternate config (CC based with sword and shield?) could be fun.

With few activations, having much of your army in position to take advantage of the Farsight retain rule at the start of a turn (when it's generally used) is unlikely IMO (as it would require leaving moderately vulnerable Titans and more vulnerable lesser units probably within range of the enemy army early in a previous turn when the opponent still has half his activations to use) so I'm more negative on the utility of Farsight in this list.

With such activation pressure aircraft seem too expensive to justify including in a list. Perhaps have smaller cheaper formations of them?

I agreed that the Warlock isn't attractive in this list. Maybe if it could summon an Avatar (I know) or had a free supreme commander, of some other special psychic bonus. As it is, I'd go for Phantoms and Revenant pairs as core choices.

I see War Walkers as more appropriate (distinct from 'better') backfield firefighters than Wraithguard. Longer range and lance AT fire makes their overwatch a serious threat to RA aircraft transports, and they're faster if they need to redeploy. Not sure if Wraithguard (slow infantry) fit the list theme also? If keeping Wraithguard I'd consider taking a smaller/cheaper formation, and only take the CC versions if they were a swap rather than an addition I think (activation pressure too great to consider paying for extras, again).

Please don't take offense at my thoughts, I do not aim to wound, but to offer my ideas on how to build. Ignore as you want.

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion List 4.2.2
PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 2:43 pm 
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Thanks for the feed back E&C..

Ok.. left cover aircraft..I have been testing Aircraft in the Alaitoc Craftworld as the following formation and cost..

Drop in the size of the Phoenix Bomber formation from 3 to 2. Each bomber would have increase in BP by 1, so would got to 2 BP each…points 250/275(Yeah still little concern by increase in BP).

Drop in the size of the Night wing Fighter formation from 3 to 2(allow a upgrade 1 Nightwing for 75 points) . …points 225..

The games have been fun and my opponent, was OK with the above changes.. The formation sizes and cost may work in the list.

May be that's some thing scarik can look at... giving the Warlock Titan the SC as a free upgrade if its bought......

Just my two cents worth.. enjoy the week end.. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion List 4.2.2
PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 9:04 pm 
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The problem with Eldar ACs is that they have awesome stats. Comparing a 2BP Phoenix to a Marauder is a slight advantage to the Phoenix so 275 for 2 looks about right. I doubt you will see many in this list though even at that price.

Within the list compare 2 Nightwings for 225 to 6 War Walkers for 200. I could see taking 1 formation of them, maybe 2 to hunt down single survivors who run outside the range of my WWs. So that's something we can look at especially since its been tested in another list.

I haven't gotten to play with the knights yet but from a theme PoV I think they ought to be more focused on assaults. The Revenants are the fast skirmishers in this list and I don't think we need two units that do that. Either the sword and shield option or multi-shot weapons like the suncannon rather than the MW gun.

I concur that the Fusion Lance is garbage. I just wanted someone else to say it out loud first. ^^ By my reading the Imperial Multi-melta gives all the titan's FF attacks TK(d6). Is that right? Seems OTT.

Thanks for your thoughts.


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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion List 4.2.2
PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 10:03 pm 
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Quote:
Comparing a 2BP Phoenix to a Marauder

I've long held the view the Imperial Marauder is overpriced. YMMV.

Quote:
By my reading the Imperial Multi-melta gives all the titan's FF attacks TK(d6). Is that right? Seems OTT.

Sounds like a typo. Always used to be an extra FF attack that had TK d6.

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion List 4.2.2
PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 9:39 am 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:

Quote:
By my reading the Imperial Multi-melta gives all the titan's FF attacks TK(d6). Is that right? Seems OTT.

Sounds like a typo. Always used to be an extra FF attack that had TK d6.


After checking the ATML3.24 PDF, I would agree with EC and say its a typo..in the TP..

I have brought it to Dave's attention and hopefully it was be corrected..

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 Post subject: Re: Fir Iolarion List 4.2.2
PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 6:25 pm 
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Ok.

A Fusion Lance that adds +1 FF TK(D6) to its current statline is comparable to the Psychic Lance. Better against large WEs, not as potent against groups or smaller WEs were 1d6 is overkill.


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