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Harlequin Grand Masque V4.2.1 http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=31579 |
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Author: | CAL001 [ Thu Dec 29, 2016 10:32 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Harlequin Grand Masque V4.2.1 |
Ginger, What is the status of this list. is it Experimental or Developmental? Cheers Cal |
Author: | PFE200 [ Fri Dec 30, 2016 12:44 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Harlequin Grand Masque V4.2.1 |
CAL001 wrote: Ginger, What is the status of this list. is it Experimental or Developmental? Cheers Cal As explain already by Facebook.... Harlequin Grand Masque(4.2)(Sub-Ac is Ginger) Note: from Ginger on the stats of Developmental "a reasonable amount of work and testing was done in the distant past. Also, I believe the list works fairly well in itself, though perhaps not as a 'tournament' list" So I say to you don't allow it at cancon2017... The above is Ginger response to me, after we discussed were it should be on the tree so to speak... |
Author: | Ginger [ Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:44 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Harlequin Grand Masque V4.2.1 |
As Greg says, it is more developmental than anything else, not least because the current list does not find favour among some people. Furthermore the list is deliberately intended to be very flexible in its approach which is a radical departure from the normal list design, which needs correspondingly greater testing. I have been formulating a response to the very reasonable question raised by Wartrader (and others) as to the armour values, which I hope to post soon. |
Author: | PFE200 [ Fri Dec 30, 2016 3:15 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Harlequin Grand Masque V4.2.1 |
Ginger wrote: I have been formulating a response to the very reasonable question raised by Wartrader (and others) as to the armour values, which I hope to post soon. Cool... sound interesting, look forward to seeing it.. So have you through about more support choices for the list yet? |
Author: | Ginger [ Sat Jan 07, 2017 10:10 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Harlequin Grand Masque V4.2.1 |
Hi IJW Wartrader (and others). Here is the long delayed reply on RA Armour. Thank you for your suggestion and please accept my apology for not replying sooner. I have been looking at ways of including ‘Daethdi’ in some form or another, (though this word seems to have been dropped in the latest 2015 codex). The issue you raise is quite difficult to resolve since it is central to the way the Harlequins are designed to operate as a unit and a formation (within the restrictions of the E:A rule mechanics). On the one hand the Harlequins should be vulnerable to ranged fire, whilst on the other hand their speed should make them almost impossible to hit in an assault, on top of which individually they should be more deadly in close combat than any other Eldar Aspect – ‘blurred coloured shapes passing through enemy troops as though they posed no more resistance than melted butter’. The nub of issue is whether we make the Harlequins capable of destroying all opponents in First Strike assault leaving them with weak armour for ranged fire etc, or whether we need to improve their all-round resilience, potentially allowing the Harlequins to be less deadly in assault but still able to win assaults. We can also learn from the related (and extensive) Howling Banshee debate, which are considered somewhat lacklustre in assault compared with other Aspects, and this despite the increased CC factors. One solution to the conundrum of the Harlequin stats would be to increase the power of the First Strike capacity to take out the enemy units before they can hurt the Harlies (the Howling Banshee solution).
The alternate solution is to improve Harlequin resilience in some way (reflecting the fact that they are really hard to hit), to make them better able to survive close assaults. There are several ways of doing this, including giving them “Invulnerable”, “RA” or some form of special rule that varies their armour value depending on whether they are in combat or not, much like you are suggesting.
If we consider ranged fire in abstraction, basically the result is to reduce a formation by a few units, whilst adding some BMs that are often reduced or shed altogether in the Rally phase. Reducing the initial formation size mimics losses to ranged fire to some extent, thereby providing a simulation of the desired ‘squishyness’ to ranged fire. Effectively by starting with smaller than usual formation sizes we are building in the notional effects of ranged fire. Using smaller formation sizes also provides other benefits as well, helping to answer other issues over the power of a given formation and it’s use;
So, in summary, 5+RA was chosen as the least bad way of representing the difficulties in killing Harlequins in assault, while reducing the formation size was an attempt to mitigate the ‘ranged fire’ issue (that also had several major benefits). And if you want further ‘fluffy’ reasoning behind this choice of RA armour, we can also suggest that the personal holofields and other ‘Daethdi’ style equipment, together with the more spaced out nature of the people, all make it harder to target the Harlequins than other Eldar Aspects and troops. |
Author: | PFE200 [ Sun Jan 08, 2017 5:01 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Harlequin Grand Masque V4.2.1 |
Thank you for the insight ginger..and very interesting read.. |
Author: | IJW Wartrader [ Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:27 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Harlequin Grand Masque V4.2.1 |
And another thanks here. RA still 'feels' wrong, but I can understand why it's been chosen. It's not like this is a list that's short of special rules already... EDIT - and thanks for the exhaustive and informative explanation! |
Author: | PFE200 [ Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:54 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Harlequin Grand Masque V4.2.1 |
Battle report up... viewtopic.php?f=84&t=32521 |
Author: | Ginger [ Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:33 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Harlequin Grand Masque V4.2.1 |
Hi pfe and thanks for returning to the fray. The report was interesting, though the result is getting a little monotonous. The end was interesting as well. Losing all the leaders means the Harlies leave the table at the end of turn #3. This is another demonstration of why the units need to be placed with greater care than most races. Cegorach was not mentioned at all, even though it was evidently placed in some of the photos. And finally no mention was made of the Shadowseers - did they do anything? Basically the list takes a lot of getting used to, and some of the problems are clearly down to the enforced absence . . . . On the reporting tool, The first engagement was also interesting. The notes and stats suggested that only Mimic #3 attacked (7x hits from 12 dice is statistically valid). However the notes also suggest that Mimic #2 was also involved - was it? Also, though useful, I still find the comments from the reporting tool a bit confusing. Some of the entries are excessive, others like hits, saves are helpfull. The comments should note the loss of characters, where enemy units are "enthralled" etc. |
Author: | PFE200 [ Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:11 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Harlequin Grand Masque V4.2.1 |
Thanks for reading..... They maybe getting little monotonous on results , but i do find them fun to play as pure Harlequins, although a very tough challenge.Also i haven't done many other Races either, mainly space marines.. Cegorach was placed on the table first turn and then found he was not with in 30cm at end of turn 1 of a formation and so was lost...We forgot to add him to the report.. Shadowseers - only one got into engagement and he manage a 1 on D3...but the Warhound was wiped out by the first strike.. Yeah agree with the "some of the problems are clearly down to the enforced absence" statement.... Yeah the Mimic #2 formation was involved in the engagement...Thanks for the reminder, will need ask for a tweak, so when commander ability is used and formation brought in..it shows in the txt file. The tools does a txt file, that contains the data and as the user.. I can deleted the ones not need as such...so getting the formatting and data that should be export from the report , maybe be the next big step, thanks for the feed back...will have chat with pauljam about it.. |
Author: | Ginger [ Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:53 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Harlequin Grand Masque V4.2.1 |
Ah, thanks for the clarification. The first engagement also demonstrates another twist with this list; the choices faced by the harlie player when deciding on engagements. Where possible you need to preserve both units and activations, so you need to choose the assaults wisely, declaring the enemy intermingled where possible whilst using the minimum force to achieve a victory. This also means making best use of all the special rules where possible . . . That said, they still suffer from lack of mobility and activation paucity. So I am pondering the addition of a new formation, 5x Venoms for 275. To mimic the 'fluff', while the Venoms may transport a separate Mimic or Troupe formation, when "assaulting" they drop the transported formation and are then treated as 'supports' during the assault. They share the fate If the transported formation, consolidating if it wins and withdrawing broken it it loses. The other thought is to adopt the DE "fleet of foot" rules. What do you think guys? |
Author: | PFE200 [ Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:27 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Harlequin Grand Masque V4.2.1 |
Sound interesting and I think both would help the list... |
Author: | Ginger [ Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:35 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Harlequin Grand Masque V4.2.1 |
Ok guys A heads up, the Harlequins are coming out of the aether. This time there is a chance they ‘might’ even be a candidate for aproved status - (gasp) - though that may still be a long way off. More later. |
Author: | Ginger [ Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:31 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Harlequin Grand Masque V4.2.1 |
Thread locked. New list posted |
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