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Ulthwé Craftworld v4.2 *revitalized*

 Post subject: Re: Ulthwé Craftworld v4.2 *revitalized*
PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2016 2:24 pm 
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PFE200 wrote:
As to the other stuff, I would hope you would hold off changing anything till…at least 12 games are played and reported on... Than review..


thanks for the support so far. thumbs up.

no i wont change anything yet. i'm thinking about how to really deal with the things mentioned by the other guys, so far i'm not convinced by either way or option. and as long as i haven't played at least some battles with the current list and can't develop a feeling for it, i will have no real point to contribute in order to favour a change.
looking at your battles it at least does not look op to me. which is a good start for me. still fearing for the worst for my next battle when facing a guy playing really pro and exploiting any weakness. hope i don't get devastated.

cheers guys. enjoy your wekend.


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 Post subject: Re: Ulthwé Craftworld v4.2 *revitalized*
PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2016 2:46 pm 
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Hi

Np problem... well another game

viewtopic.php?f=84&t=31571

Yeah, this didn't go well and it was mainly a DE with heavy touch of W/E in it..I need win Turn 2 SR and I didn't get it..so got caught with formation too close, It was done that way so i could do big assault and get 2 of his formation in one go....guess dice gods were not smiling on me..

Hoping for another game Thursday...

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 Post subject: Re: Ulthwé Craftworld v4.2 *revitalized*
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 7:26 pm 
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wow.. you got kind of devastated..

mhmm.. i'm fearing it will become pretty hard to compose a setup that will be competitive in tournaments.

i'm not seeing how an ulthwe guardian based army could possibly win vs a titan legion army except by dieing in droves and maybe contest some objectives and then lose in a tie break. beign restricted on support as it is now.


also i would like to see how the fare vs armies that rely on high strategy and low initiative itself for winning. like sm.. but they have better staying qualities..


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 Post subject: Re: Ulthwé Craftworld v4.2 *revitalized*
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 4:50 am 
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Hi Graf_spree,

I don't think that's true, remember, I'm testing a list build that I would expect not show up at tournament.. I'm stress testing the +1 int, so yeah I have gone heavy guardians and no upgrades on them.. so I expect it will show that the guardians are squishy.Which we all know...

Looking over the UK stats(yes there a small differences between the two list), they still have a pretty good overall rating...... Win 35 - 56% Loses 18 - 29% Draws 9 - 15%

Most of list used t in the UK, are using WAVE serpent and also using wraithguards etc.with their guardians..

I will be facing SM next week, but my next game is against DKoK..Another that should be fun..I have modified the list again and there more wraith-guards in it.

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 Post subject: Re: Ulthwé Craftworld v4.2 *revitalized*
PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 10:53 am 
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another report up...

viewtopic.php?f=84&t=31580

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 Post subject: Re: Ulthwé Craftworld v4.2 *revitalized*
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 9:22 pm 
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hey ho gents,

good evening to you.
I just put up an updated version 4.2.1 with some editing in the unit rooster. removed some entries and corrected wording. changelog included. can be found in the first entry :)

Is anyone up for some playtesting maybe? Would be most welcome. Will get in some games soon I hope.


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 Post subject: Re: Ulthwé Craftworld v4.2 *revitalized*
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 12:19 am 
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Another report up..

viewtopic.php?f=84&t=31605

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 Post subject: Re: Ulthwé Craftworld v4.2 *revitalized*
PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2016 7:14 am 
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Another report up..

viewtopic.php?f=84&t=31609

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 Post subject: Re: Ulthwé Craftworld v4.2 *revitalized*
PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2016 9:28 am 
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Hooray for your 100th game this year!


And a win as well :)

I wonder if you guys don't like using the avatar;)
Or did you simply forgot to bring it?


Also nice to see you both doing a return match using the same build but coming out with opposite results. Actually speaks well for the list from my feeling.


What is your impression? Also what about that ini. 1+ guardians? How would they have fared with 2+ vs marines?


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 Post subject: Re: Ulthwé Craftworld v4.2 *revitalized*
PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2016 1:26 pm 
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Graf_Spee wrote:
What is your impression? Also what about that ini. 1+ guardians? How would they have fared with 2+ vs marines?
I'm interested in this too as I want to know if making the change will be a big factor or not.

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 Post subject: Re: Ulthwé Craftworld v4.2 *revitalized*
PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2016 2:46 pm 
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Graf_Spee wrote:
Hooray for your 100th game this year! And a win as well :)

Thank you... :)
Graf_Spee wrote:
I wonder if you guys don't like using the avatar;) Or did you simply forgot to bring it?

Its that we forget to bring him on..it not that we don't like using the avatar... ::)
Graf_Spee wrote:
Also nice to see you both doing a return match using the same build but coming out with opposite results. Actually speaks well for the list from my feeling.

I tend to agree with you on that..
Graf_Spee wrote:
What is your impression? Also what about that ini. 1+ guardians? How would they have fared with 2+ vs marines?

I pretty happy with list.... I happy with the SR 4 and so far I'm happy with the ini. 1+ guardians... as to the last question...Well last game, I don't think it would have made a differences, Trent never rolled anything less than a 4. Sorry, I got him to roll when doing activation with the BGWH, when he didn't have too(sorry testing ::) ).... I know I did it in another game, but I lost the piece of paper it was scratched on.. :{[]

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 Post subject: Re: Ulthwé Craftworld v4.2 *revitalized*
PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2016 9:49 pm 
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Guys, the key to the issue is the ability of the Ulthwe to set up a guaranteed rolling assault, and especially to command guaranteed combined assaults ('guaranteed' because the assaults are 1+ even in retains). Basically this means hiding the key formations until late in turn #1 and turn #2, then moving things to set up the required assaults for turn #2 and turn #3 respectively.

When setting up a 'combined' assault, you need to heavily intermingle the formations (to avoid a clipping assault ruining the plan) and put the two or three formations in charge range of the desired target. BGWH in Wave Serpents accompanied by two formations of Jetbikes gives a lethal assault at up to 50cms, and the entire lot can then support a further assault some 30cms in any direction. Obviously there are other such combinations that include a Warlock and / or Avatar.


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 Post subject: Re: Ulthwé Craftworld v4.2 *revitalized*
PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2016 11:55 pm 
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Yeah personally I think the opponent-annoyance factor of a cheesy 1+ auto-retain rolling assault is the biggest problem. So the combination of 1+ initiative and farsight.

I had a hunch that the SR5 issue has been a little overstated, so I ran the numbers to see what difference it really makes to winning strategy in turn 2 (compared to SR4). Remember the higher your strategy, the more likely you are to win turn 1, thus the more likely a draw in turn 2 will go against you. So the benefit is dampened ever so slightly.

Basically it makes an 8% to 13% difference, depending on the SR of the army you are facing (bigger difference vs SR5).

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 Post subject: Re: Ulthwé Craftworld v4.2 *revitalized*
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 10:43 pm 
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Kyrt wrote:
Yeah personally I think the opponent-annoyance factor of a cheesy 1+ auto-retain rolling assault is the biggest problem. So the combination of 1+ initiative and farsight.

I had a hunch that the SR5 issue has been a little overstated, so I ran the numbers to see what difference it really makes to winning strategy in turn 2 (compared to SR4). Remember the higher your strategy, the more likely you are to win turn 1, thus the more likely a draw in turn 2 will go against you. So the benefit is dampened ever so slightly.

Basically it makes an 8% to 13% difference, depending on the SR of the army you are facing (bigger difference vs SR5).


yeah, I agree on the +5 strategy. it is nothing as dramatic as one might think. the ini 1+ is an entirely other thing.

but, if you can come up with a better idea to make an Ulthwe list at least marginally attractive while keeping the flair otherwise, you're welcome to discuss your idea.
because from my point this is the whole difficulty with this list. it's guardians that should be highligthed here. wow. have a look at the restrictive setup of the list. only 1 core formation. guardians. only unlocks two supports (as opposed to 3 in every other eldar list). only 4 strong aspects. it makes it really hard not to turn players away from it, because it is simply not as sexy as a bielt tan, iyanden or saim hann is. you just get some squishy guardians and 1 farseer extra (that also replaces a guardian). it is very hard to keep this list attractive. players just need something. not only a cropped down list with no extra whatsoever, only restrictions and limitations. that's why I think the BGWH needs to be a bit better than the other vanilla guardians. and that's why I stick to ini 1+ atm. otherwise there would be no reason for me not to take biel tan.

and if you get caught in a cheesy auto retain with guardians (which is simply not possible atm if the formation is not on board yet or has lost a farseer) and didn't place any BM on that really soft formations before, you have been doing something wrong, frankly. and a cheesy nearly auto retain in a biel tan list is also quite easy to achieve. just line up two aspects and and a warlock titan. granted that second aspect would need a 2+. but hey, i'd place my money on them any time and compared to guardians they really pack some greater punch.

still I see your point, and a friend proposed an interesting and quite fluffy idea that contain no special rule. I will share that for discussion soon, after I posted the battle reports for the two games I had with the current list last saturday. still sorting pics and writing things down from the notes we took.

so, stay tuned and give me your ideas you lovely people.

best
;D


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 Post subject: Re: Ulthwé Craftworld v4.2 *revitalized*
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 11:22 pm 
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I hear you, it is not very distinct from biel tan either, and I'm not sure giving them 1+ initiative fixes that. You could try tinkering with the guardian formation composition as a way to place more emphasis on them, give them more roles etc. For instance the option to add more at a cheap price. Perhaps even a second (troupe) formation of heavy weapon platforms for example. A way to get Inspiring into the guardian formation would pretty much reverse the aspect/guardian relationship but that might be a stretch too far.

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