This is a major revision of the exisiting Yme-Loc list, I've made changes to every section of the list except the air/titan third.

Changes:

Individuals:
Removed Gate of Vaul. Replaced with option to upgrade Wraithgate to a Spiritgate (allowing passage of all AVs, not just those with walker) for +50.
Removed Avatar.

Engines of Vaul Warhost:
Reduced cost of third EoV to +200.
Removed Vyper upgrade.
Added SoV upgrade - 0-3 Falcons or Fire Prisms at +50 ea. One Falcon can be replaced with a Firestorm.

Swords of Vaul Warhost:
Replaced Farseer with Mounted Farseer.
Eliminated cap on Fire Prisms; reduced cost to 50pt ea.
Removed Vyper upgrade.
Removed Wave Serpents from Guardian Upgrades.
Added Aspect upgrade - 2 stands. Only Apsects that are transportable are allowed. Also allowed Autarch (but not Exarch) to be added to a stand.

Support:
Removed War Walker Troupe.
Removed Hornet upgrade from Windriders.
Added Hornet Troupe.
Replaced old version of Guardian Troupe with the Saim-Hann version.

I think that's all. I could have missed something.

Unit Reference sheets are in the Biel-Tan post.

The list is available from Armyforge at this link:

http://traitor-legion.appspot.com/choos ... eloc_NETEA

Note this is not the list in the index - Adam wants to keep that the compendium list to keep things simple for newcomers.

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SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

I'll take a look over the list, and give more opinions later, but...

I was mulling an idea the other day about how to make the larger gates more balanced. What if the larger gates (Spiritgate, Gate of Vaul) had to be controlled by the Eldar player in order to used by formations entering through the webway?

I think it would be an interesting thing to test.

There is no SoV upgrade in the EoV warhost. Instead, there is a mounted Guardian upgrade.

I'll reupload it. I thought it was in the file.

_________________
SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

The upgrade was saved to the .pub file, but apparently I neglected to reprint it to .pdf. Fixed and reuploaded now.

_________________
SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

Hi guys,
I am fairly new to the tac comm community but I have been playing the old verions of this list and decided to test the new draft. below is a wall of text (sorry) with my thoughts thus far.
Disclamier: these opions are based from my experiences of using the list based on my local meta of the game. Which incedently is predominatly massed barrage spam disrupt prefered, and teleporting units and in some cases mass barrage AND teleporting units, I also had some games not a part of the local norm. Games played were from the 1000 minigeddon through to 3000 which is the norm here for tournies and what not.
After reading the draft, playing and taking time to think there are things I like, things I don't and others the leave me asking Why?? After some games with both the proposed and the current played, I will try and address my thoughts as best I can, the changes are in italics with my thoughts mixed in.

Individuals:
Removed Gate of Vaul. Replaced with option to upgrade Wraithgate to a Spiritgate (allowing passage of all AVs, not just those with walker) for +50.

This I thought was needed, while I never actually used one. I did have some joke lists ideas and I chatted to friends about it, Having a Warlock Titan running out of one in the opponents face while sounds awesome I just could not see the viability in doing it, based on local meta

Removed Avatar.

Seriously? I would like to know why, They are a craftworld and have one no reason why they should not. Due to their combat doctrine they would apply the Avatar differently than other craftworlds, this can translate to unique tactical options the player can try. I know using the current list I have used the Avatar in ways I would never use with other craftworld lists purely due to the different way this list works, catching opponents unawares. Please put him back. In some games having him there would have changed the game in my favour. Not in an over the top way but just enough to tip the odds better, That said using the previous list I used him in an engagement to defend the blitz, He missed all his hits and failed all his saves for the round. So sometimes you get what you pay for.

Autarch adjustment.
This I like as it adds flexability so I don’t have to take a manditory Aspect Troupe just to get a supreme commander. Problem is the changes to the Aspect troupe make them pointless to take altogether.

Engines of Vaul Warhost:
Reduced cost of third EoV to +200.
Removed Vyper upgrade.

Added SoV upgrade - 0-3 Falcons or Fire Prisms at +50 ea. One Falcon can be replaced with a Firestorm.
This isn't to bad, As I found in my larger games I found myself leaning more toward Revenant Titans than this formation using the previous list. I thought the vipers were a bit of a waste and would not bother with them. however with current changes it has options better suited having the falcons/prism be more than a soak for blast markers as I felt the vipers were nothing more. Now I can see me using 2 Scorpions with 2 prism tanks in smaller games where Revenants are just to expensive.

Swords of Vaul Warhost:
Replaced Farseer with Mounted Farseer.
Eliminated cap on Fire Prisms; reduced cost to 50pt ea.
Removed Vyper upgrade.
Removed Wave Serpents from Guardian Upgrades.
Added Aspect upgrade - 2 stands. Only Apsects that are transportable are allowed. Also allowed Autarch (but not Exarch) to be added to a stand.

For me this is the meat and potatoes of Yme-Loc, I try to run at least 2. Love the farseer changes, means I can use my Eagle command tanks unless the viper farseer was intended but I hope I am correct in my assumption. Love the idea of running Scorpions etc but I feel they are more a hinderance to this formation than an assistance with the fliped options in the EoV formation.
With the weakness of the falcons being that they are made of paper if anything else. This usually means for me I have to get the most out of my movement tricks to minimise casualties as opposed to relying on armour. With the reliance on movment the WEs become an anchor due to the reduced movement, However this is not so bad with a formation of prism tanks as the range of the weapons can make up for this. The other problem is while this formation has options to buy, you are pigeon-holed in what you can take, as Prisms have no transport your limited to adding a WE only even then It would only be a scorpion. It could be the wording but it seems I can take either all falcons or prisms, so at this point I am assuming you can’t have a mix of either, not that I would.
All falcons on the other hand, while I can still take a WE as mentioned before tactically there is no point, so that leaves infantry. Aspects would almost be an auto include just to have an Autarch there but I have done some nasty tricks 2 stands of fire dragons.
One thought I had was for 200 points just added as (and/or) with the WE would be 3 night spinners. Originally I speculated 2 for 200 but at 3 you get the same as 1 WE in the sense of 3 tanks vs DC3 of the WE but with the added bonus of being the same speed as the falcons/prisms. It also adds tactical flexability. Or instead of Scorps, Cobras and Storm Serpents you had a Lynx instead, they are quick enough to keep up with the unit.
The more I have thought about this the more I like the idea of instead of WE have for X pts, 2-3
Night spinners or 1 Lynx. This way you can give back WEs the 1+ activation and have a unit where all models move at the same speed.

Support:
Removed War Walker Troupe.

So we are left with 1 garrison unit type. This I did not like, odd as it may sound having a choice or rangers or walkers gives options in some games where I prefer one over the other. especially if You are running Titans they can provide an escort and offer some protection against waves of teleporting terminators, Necrons etc.
Removed Hornet upgrade from Windriders.

Added Hornet Troupe.
I think hornets are a waste of space here and only for 3. That’s one killed and the formation is broken. Main reason is while a Hornet is not bad in its own right in this list there are other choices that can do the same and in some cases better, Given the structure of building a list also. Ie: 3 troupes per warhost, means I need to take multiple formations to be effective but in a 3000pt game the cost blowout and you become forced to sacrifice formations I feel are more useful to the list over all. This is not the only formation to be a victim of this problem.
Another idea, Instead of putting war walkers back. Have hornet formation with 3 at a base with option to increase number, and make them able to garrison for this craftworld. But I do prefer the war walkers.

Replaced old version of Guardian Troupe with the Saim-Hann version.
Two things I don’t like about this, first they have manditory transports which I feel should be optional so I can use them in more flexible ways.
Second, Like to have an option to include support weapons.
Having some units starting on foot adds flexibility so sometimes I could deploy them as blitz defence, Have them in a Vampire raider, have another option for Storm serpents to be taken besides the windrider troupe. With a farseer available as well to even have a summon point for the Avatar to make some rethink about taking that objective. having the transports as options does not take away the point of having a completely mounted force.

Aspect warriors
At just 4 stands in the formation makes it next to useless from my experience, shining spears completely a waste of time as a windrider host has more survivability. I can assume the train of thought was move 2 units from this formation and pop them as a SoV option. Again like Hornets they are needed to be taken multiple times to be of any use and in smaller games its a bit of a gamble. Normally I run with 2 formations if points will allow. One is a unit of shining spears, which can work well independently or if set up with some SoV formations nearby for FF(from the SoV) assist, A decent 1-2 punch. The other formation is often Striking scorpions in a Vampire for surgical strikes, or emergency support etc.

Windrider Troupe
These have become the go-to formation due to redundancies in other formations, however in smaller games vipers are a better option than the jetbikes. As I feel that jetbike versions of this troupe need to be taken multiple times to be really effective. Nothing wrong with this troupe I just feel that I will be sacrificing useful units to make this formation effective.

First of all, thanks for the feedback. I'll see your wall of text, and raise you one.



Just to clarify, did you feel that the Gate was needed or it's removal?

I happen to agree that the Gate of Vaul sounded a lot scarier than it probably was. However, a smaller and easier to balance gate is probably better for the list anyway. Certainly there were enough concerns to make it prudent to remove.


His removal was primarily to focus the list's theme more towards tanks. I've always had trouble making him work in Mechanized lists due to the difference between his engage range and that of the Farseer's formation, but I can look closer at reintroducing him.


The Falcon Command Tanks were the intended use here.

The intent was to allow mixing, though I didn't include the standard wording to make that explicit. Good catch.

More exotic units like the Lynx will probably remain the domain of Mymeara. Making sure the models are widely available needs to take precedence with recent events in mind. Including Warp Hunters would be an option, but not a preferred one. I wouldn't have included the Hornet if it weren't already there.

As for Night Spinners, the list already includes a very good barrage option. Make use of it and you shouldn't need them in the core formations, which seems rather un-Eldar anyway. I'm not sure what the comment on WE 1+ activation is getting at? Only Titans and Aspects get that.



War Walkers don't synergize with the focus of grav tanks, Hornets do. Hornets have a lot of potential to be abused as Garrisons. This is something that needs looking at in the future, but until I get more feedback on the current changes in the Big Five, I'm reluctant to add more potential abuses.

Frankly in a list like this you're better off making sure your units are supporting each other properly to defend against teleporters - termies are of limited use as you can choose to FF, and because of this they are as vulnerable to massed supporting fire as Necrons. You might not want to castle, but keeping your units in support range, but out of intermingling range, will be useful.


Have you tried them? Look at it his way: with a 40cm Move and 45cm range you can Hit and Run against targets 85cm out with 6x AT4+ shots and no chance to retaliate for 175 points. This is also the reason I'm wary to have them garrison. I'd rather have Hornets as dedicated tank hunters and let the falcons do the engaging and heavy work.



It's a tank list. Requiring foot troops to mount up should be the norm. The formation in it's basic form retains the core attributes of low cost and FF utility, with an optional buff. This increases commonality between lists, decreasing testing required (which is unfortunately proving prescient) and focuses the theme of the list. I actually had the Aspects required to be mounted too, but left that out to allow them to gate and airdrop.


These are engagement support formations in my experience. They won't get much done alone, but as part of a rolling assault they have the punch required - I commonly use a Reaper Exarch, three Dire Avengers, and a pair of Wave Serpents for this purpose - it can lay BMs, has 2x 3+ and 8x 4+ FF attacks, a 50cm engage range, and costs only 300pt. It's true Shining spears won't last long in fours, but then I'm not sure they're the best choice for this list anyway - it's got plenty of speedy AT already. Striking Scorpions will do the same damage against RA4+ on average, and far better against anything below that which is far more useful in a list packed with 2x AT4+ weapons.

_________________
SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

Heavy reading, but I agree with SG's reasoning with this.

Location Query. I thought I'd put this here - due to no pictures. If Mark has some then perhaps it should be moved to Game Reports?

Orks vs Yme Loc Eldar, 4000 points

Regretfully only managed one game over the summer break; here is a short report. Hopefully Mark will be able to add some images. I thought I’d use the new draft list, especially since I wanted to try out the new look Engines of Vaul points and variations in statistics. Also to try and use the more fragile Aspect Warrior units and to give my Hornets a spin. I felt the Avatar was too iconic for Eldar to be left behind so I took him anyway - despite it not being available on the list.

I was keen to go Gargant Hunting, hence the Cobras; also to test their return to a general ignore cover on the main guns. The new stats for the Scorpions (60 cm 3 x MW2+, 30 cm AP5+) and the points discount for multiples lured me into using them for the first time. Combined with the 50 point Fire Prisms, and integral AA, they made a very attractive BTS formation that I thought could sit back with somewhat more safety and resilience than I have previously used for BTS.


Yme Loc, 4000 points, 14 activations

Avatar [free]
Wraithgate [50]
2 Scorpions, 2 Fire Prisms, Fire Storm [600]
2 Cobra [450]
4 Falcons + Farseer, Fire Prism, 2 Fire Storms, Storm Serpent [550]
4 Falcons + Farseer, Fire Prism, 2 Fire Storms, Storm Serpent [550]
4 Warp Spiders + Autarch [250]
3 Warp Spiders + Exarch, Swooping Hawk [200]
4 Swooping Hawks [175]
3 Hornets [175]
5 Jet Bikes, Vyper [200]
5 Jet Bikes, Vyper [200]
4 Rangers [100]
4 Rangers [100]
4 Rangers [100]
3 Nightwings [300]


Orks, After action report estimates, 4000 points, 16 activations

3 x Gun Mobz: 4 Guns, Zapp Gun (all garrisioned)
Gun Mob: 4 Guns, Zapp Gun, Nobz
2 x Zapp Brigades: 3 Gun Wagonz, Zapp Wagon
2 x Ork Mobs: 2 Nobz, 6 Boyz, 2 Grots, Battlefortress
Gargant (5 shields) + Warboss [BTS]
Death Copters: 8 Copters
Buggies: 8 Buggies
Stompa Mob: Super Stomper (3 shields), 3 Stompas
Kill Kroozer
Air 1: 4 Fighter Bombers
Air 2: 3 Fighter Bombers
Air 3: 3 Fighter Bombers



Turn 1, Orks win strategy (and the sun set behind the Orks – the lights had a mind of their own with random on and off all evening – a very complex stellar and planetary system).

The Kroozer failed to arrive but a call from the Warboss ensured it arrived (using a re-roll). The two big templates managed to cover 3 tanks but all escaped unharmed.
The Rangers also failed to active but they all just regrouped. I made sure that I could not use the C-in-C re-roll too early by having him sit off table in the web-way.
The Nobz’s gun mob moved forward.
The Hornets moved out of the Wraithgate and managed to strip 4 shields off the Gargant, then zip back into cover.
A flight of Ork fighter bombers attacked the Hornets but all 3 hits were saved.
Another unit of Rangers, in the second backup screening line, went onto overwatch.
The Buggies doubled into cover.
Another formation of rangers marched into a better position.
The Death Copters shot.
One of the Falcon troops failed to active, and re-grouped.
My first rash move of the evening was an attack, out of one of the Wave Serpents, by the Exarch’s 3 warp spiders and swooping hawk on the 8 Ork Copters. Two units died in the attack and the rest died in combat resolution. Oooops.

At this stage I became increasingly aware that I would be out-activated by the Orks. They had more activations in total but I also had several formations in reserve on the web-way that could not possibly be committed in turn 1. So, . . .
Also at this point my notes on the action became rather less meticulous.

The Cobras move forward and targeted one of the Big Gun Mobz. They survived so I used the Scorpions to finish them off.

My third failed activation of the turn occurred when I tried to call in the Nightwings. I’d forgotten to pick my newly painted models, sitting on my painting table for their basing to be completed, so Mark had kindly offered some Biel Tan allies. They were a little tardy turning up.

Thoroughly out activated one of my forward Ranger formations died horribly.
The multiple Ork aircraft disengaged and none were shot down, despite several hits.

15 Ork formations versus 13 Eldar formations remaining, but two Eldar formations also failed to rally. The Autarch’s formation did rally, also leaving it with no blast markers; a feature of such small Leader assisted formations.

Overall both of us attacked strongly on our left flanks and the screening forces on our weaker right flanks took a pounding. Thankfully, for the Eldar strategists, the Gargant was anchoring the right of the Ork line in the centre of the table so it was a plausible target for the second turn.


Turn 2, and the Eldar win the initiative.

A triple activation from the Yme Loc went after the Ork Gargant. First the Hornets finally cleared the shields. The Scorpions and Fire Prisms were rather more destructive leaving the Gargant with just one damage point left. Because this broke the Gargant, and it naturally retreated to a safer spot, it was rather more difficult to finish off, so one of the Swords of Vaul formations threw themselves into the open and the final shot by the attached Fire Prism ensured the beast’s destruction.

This formation took its lumps with an Ork sustained fire mission wrecking the Falcons.

A rolling assault by Jet Bikes out of the surviving Storm Serpent against one of the gun mobs followed by the other Jet Bike formation out of the fixed wraithgate against another gun mob cleared the path to the Ork Blitz very nicely.

A ground attack mission by the flight of 4 fighter bombers (despite four blastmarkers) broke the forward Falcon unit and a critical hit on the embedded Strom Serpent blew up the web portal on the Eldar right flank.

The Biel Tan fighters finally put in an appearance and shot down 3 of the 4 Ork aircraft. Those Eldar fighters are really effective! Glad I finally painted some, even if I left mine at home!

A little luck ensured that the Cobras were just within range of the of one unit of the Ork gun mob in the central ruins and the double blast template extended to cover the zapp gun which was duly silenced.

The Death Copters doubled into a cross fire position. I was too busy to record the cost of that.

One of the Battlefortress mobs assaulted a Ranger formation on over-watch and wiped them out for no losses.

Another flight of Ork Fighter Bombers set up a strafing run and lost one of their number to AA fire from the Cobras.

The Orks then finished off the turn with doubling from: another Battlefortress mob, a Zapp Brigade, the Buggies and a Gun Mob. I was feeling distinctly out activated. Especially since a lot of the Ork formations rallied.


Turn 3. The Orks win the strategy roll. The activation count sits at 11 Ork and 8 Eldar formations.

The Avatar was called in to defend the Eldar Blitz objective. And the Biel Tan Swooping Hawks fluttered down behind the rampant Ork left flank into screening positions.

The Supa Stompa Mob shoots and kills several more Eldar tanks, producing (eliminating??) another formation.

The Hornets doubled in to shoot up another formation and the Autarch’s Warp Spiders clipped the sole remaining Ork Gunz unit.

The Orks finally targeted the Hornet formation with a strafing run from a flight of fighter bombers, which killed one and broke the formation which repositioned to block approach routes to the Ork Blitz.

The Orks retained and moved a Battlefortress mob to capture the Eldar Blitz.

Fire from the Scorpions and an assault from the Avatar put paid to that but the second Battlefortress mob managed to contest the objective later in the turn.

In response the final Eldar Jet Bike formation marshaled onto the Ork Blitz despite the presence of scattered and broken Death Copters.

A nightwing CAP intercepted the remaining Ork fighters and killed both of them before they could clear a path to the Ork Blitz objective.

I finally managed to keep focused on the objectives, especially in the third turn, which certainly accounts for the increasingly disjointed nature of my battle records. A 3 – 1 win to the Eldar, with BTS, T&H and Blitz to the Ork Blitz.


Some thoughts.

The Hornets proved extremely potent until they were finally targeted by the Orks. Even then they proved very useful (with their scout ability) spread out covering approaches to the Ork Blitz objective. They are very potent but utterly fragile.

The 4 unit Aspect Warrior formations are also entirely fragile so need to be given very light assault duties. Eventually I will learn to use them effectively I am sure.

Attaching an Engine of Vaul with its 15 cm formation coherency range meant that there were only minor problems maneuvering this 25 cm movement unit within the otherwise 35 cm movement allowance of the rest of the Swords of Vaul formation (Falcons, Fire Prism and Fire Storms). It was nice having mobile, protected and slightly discounted wraithgates all around the table.

The presence and use of the Avatar did not affect the overall result of the game. It did however add a little colour to the events around the Eldar Blitz. I really like the ability to call the Avatar with a Farseer character mounted on (in?) a Falcon. This Farseer as a character rather than as a unit, which is the case for all the other Eldar lists (if memory serves correctly), is a rather less powerful unit. To also remove the Avatar calling powers, from the mounted Farseer, seems a little harsh although I realize that this is somewhat allowed for in the costing of the basic formation. Basically, however, I think that calling in the Avatar is an intrinsically Eldar-ish thing to do and would be sorry to see it disappear from any Eldar list.

Having lots of units off table in reserve on the web-way left me rather light on activations. Since none of these units were particularly heavy hitting in terms of assaults I think I’ll be rather less committed to such a strategy in the future. So next time no Wave Serpents attached to the Swords of Vaul formations which should free up 400 points for some useful extra activations as well. I still fancy keeping a couple of Hornet formations on the web-way as useful light AT and scouting formations so will need the fixed wraithgate, and incidentally will need to scratch-build another 3 Hornet models.

The Scorpion formation was certainly worth-while. Under the previous regime (2 x MW2+) I was never inclined to use the beasts.

I particularly liked the drop in points for the Fire Prisms. Having scratched built some based on the old plastic Falcon models I had abandoned using them as too costly and trickly to integrate into an army at 65 points. Their 60 cm range made them a very useful add-on to the Scorpions and an equally useful range-stretching device for the Falcon formations.

The 450 points for two Engines of Vaul (also listed as a core formation) was one of the original attractions of the Yme Loc list. The more generally available 200 point cost for second and third heavy tanks will certainly see me using them more widely with other Eldar lists. Something I was distinctly reluctant to do for tournament purposes previously.

I think that the more general ignore cover for the Cobras main weapon is vital to the viability of the unit itself. You really have to use them in pairs anyway and if the enemy does not have major war-engines, as could easily happen in an open tournament event, then they are a lot of points for no real target. Making them effective against heavily armoured infantry in cover gives them a valid secondary use. In any case I think the D-cannons would be equally destructive on all targets, in cover or out. They are a tricky beast to use with their short range main weapons so some compensation is probably essential.

Finally I found my army choice a little light when it came to a formation, or two, that could sit on an objective and hold it. I really like the new infantry formation and will certainly use it in the future. However this time around I was short on points.

Well that is a lot of words for a battle report without any pictures. Hopefully Mark will be able to add some of those. Hope the feedback is useful otherwise.

I'm not going to respond in detail now; it's late and iPads are not the right tool.

Thank you for the batrep, it was most useful though I need to take the time to digest it more fully (ipad again ). I will certainly reply in greater detail tomorrow.

_________________
SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

First of all, great input here. I'm glad you approve of most of the changes that were made - to Yme-Loc and the Eldar in general. I'd like to touch on a few points in more detail.

Hornets - This is precisely what I hoped to hear about these little guys. Given their tremendous firepower for their size, they need to have a critical and exploitale weakness. It's good to hear that despite their fragility you're considering taking more. The role they played in the game was the stuff of legends: "When I was young, I fought the Greenskins. I helped take down a gargant, you know."

Aspect formations - I noticed that you seem to be using these unsupported. This isn't Biel-Tan; they don't do that well. These Aspect formations really need to have or be supporting fire to be effective. Combined with other elements of the army (FF4+ Falcons and Firestorms, FF4+ Guardians, Wraithguard, and Wave Serpents, FF3+ Storm Serpent) they become far more resilient. Also consider taking them in Wave Serpents to aid in this. It's another hundred points, but I feel it's worth it.

Avatar - I'm not convinced yet, but am open to persuasion with further batreps.

Again, thanks for the batrep and input. It seems like playtesting is hard to get these days. Every little bit helps, and this was a big bit!

_________________
SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

Nice report Andrew, don't think I have too much more to add. Left my blitz a little too exposed and then wrong footed by broken rangers and hornets in last turn which blocked my march moves to contest. A deserved win.

Wonder if scorpions might be overpowered at 3x shots, time will tell.

Deployment


End of turn 1 with both sides refused right flanks falling back.


Hornet with other grav tanks behind. Hornets really are annoying little beasts!


Orks concentrating attack eldar right flank.


After killing the gargant the Eldar swing everything towards the ork blitz.


Final turn, orks committed to attack and lose their own blitz in process.

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http://hordesofthings.blogspot.co.nz/

Apologies if this has already been answered elsewhere...

Is the Mounted Farseer option the same one listed among the Saim Hann units in the 2014 compendium? If so, am I right in assuming that their Witchblade attack would almost never be used, as it would require the Falcon to choose their 6+ CC attack instead of the 4+ FF?

Looking forward to trying out the list. I just need to track down some Wave Serpents - I think I have all the other options covered now.

EDIT: just found the unit reference in the Biel Tan thread.