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Cobra SHT

 Post subject: Re: Cobra SHT
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:06 am 
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Can i just say that the list are designed to be balanced between 3 & 5k for use in the gt sceanario. If your playing larger or different sceanarios they likely need amending.


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 Post subject: Re: Cobra SHT
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:51 am 
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LordotMilk wrote:
All the eldar units you mentioned (NS, Titans and Scorps) can use the Hit-and Run effectively, even if you have the option of doing something else which can sometimes be better.


They could, but why would you want to hit and run with Night Spinners? They're a suppression fire support unit.

What I'm saying to you is that you play to strengths of individual units within the game plan as a whole, and while Cobras may not be able to hit and run effectively, this does not mean that they still cannot be used well.

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 Post subject: Re: Cobra SHT
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 5:57 pm 
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I totally agree with Rug on the "scare" factor - when all the "ifs" line up it can deliver big-time, which plays on the opponents mind - especially if you have built the army with that factor in mind (ie lots of other shooting).

I think we all agree that under the right circumstances the Cobra is powerfull. What I think LoM and others want is a way to make the Cobra more reliable or certain, and this is my main issue. As I have said, it is up to the player to make the best use of any formation, and that depends on a huge number of factors starting with army selection and placement of objectives - all of which are rightly outside our control.

Increasing the BPs makes it more powerfull (under the right circumstances) but does not necessarily make it easier or more reliable to play with.
  • If you want to make it easier to play with, you need to adjust its speed, armour, range or remove FF etc.
    Or you could make it Fearless like the Chaos Decimator . . . . . . . and no I am not advocating this, OK
  • To make it more reliable you need to change their Initiative and Strategy roll to ensure the Cobra(s) get to be used as intended (you can already use them in the Ulthwe with a SR of 5 :) )
  • If you want to make multiple Cobras more attractive you need to ensure that the shooting is scalable. Currently 3 cobras have the same power as two against a single titan and are only marginally better than a single Cobra! Unfortunately this will require re-writing the barrage rules, or applying a special rule to the Cobra shooting - neither of which is likely to happen.


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 Post subject: Re: Cobra SHT
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:58 pm 
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Ginger wrote:
I totally agree with Rug on the "scare" factor - when all the "ifs" line up it can deliver big-time, which plays on the opponents mind - especially if you have built the army with that factor in mind (ie lots of other shooting).

I think we all agree that under the right circumstances the Cobra is powerfull. What I think LoM and others want is a way to make the Cobra more reliable or certain, and this is my main issue. As I have said, it is up to the player to make the best use of any formation, and that depends on a huge number of factors starting with army selection and placement of objectives - all of which are rightly outside our control.

Increasing the BPs makes it more powerfull (under the right circumstances) but does not necessarily make it easier or more reliable to play with.
  • If you want to make it easier to play with, you need to adjust its speed, armour, range or remove FF etc.
    Or you could make it Fearless like the Chaos Decimator . . . . . . . and no I am not advocating this, OK
  • To make it more reliable you need to change their Initiative and Strategy roll to ensure the Cobra(s) get to be used as intended (you can already use them in the Ulthwe with a SR of 5 :) )
  • If you want to make multiple Cobras more attractive you need to ensure that the shooting is scalable. Currently 3 cobras have the same power as two against a single titan and are only marginally better than a single Cobra! Unfortunately this will require re-writing the barrage rules, or applying a special rule to the Cobra shooting - neither of which is likely to happen.
I think somehow you are not seeing the point. I don't want to make the Cobra easier to play with, I want it to be possible to pick the unit in the first place. So I don't want to change the speed, range etc particularly, I just want some/any way to mitigate some of the reasons why I currently never pick it. I have no problem fielding units that are hard to use, units only good at one thing, ones that are expensive, or ones that are only useful in certain circumstances, or even ones that have wildly variable power when they do get to be used. But I do have a hard time picking units that have all of these downsides.

I also personally have no objection to a march+sustain on the basis that a sustain is "too slow for eldar". It feels wrong to sacrifice units (which is what happens after the sustain). But even it doesn't bother me too much, if it allowed me to field them then so be it. And anyway, play style is personal.

Honestly I'd be happy to just give the Cobra 3BP and leave its damage as is, reducing the TK is simply to try to mitigate one of those problems without giving a big boost vs titans (which you seemed to object to for some reason). You still have to be clever with the unit, it is still very very niche, still hard to justify buying more than one, it is still only once in a blue moon you'll get to use it, but at least when you do you've got less chance of saying "well, that was pointless" afterwards. And maybe that's enough to make you take one in a normal army because you think they're cool, rather than only to be quirky.

BTW my stats assume IC is kept.

I acknowledge that there's less reason to take a pair of cobras, but:
1. It's not only cobras that suffer this.
2. it's a bit of a straw man to suggest 3BP can't be a solution just because twins are not viable - they already aren't comparable to 2 singles.
3. I'd rather try to get singles viable than have have both singles and twins equally abysmal.

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 Post subject: Re: Cobra SHT
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 12:33 am 
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i admit i continue to find the idea of the cobra being 3bp and ignore cover to be horrifying

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 Post subject: Re: Cobra SHT
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 7:53 pm 
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Hi, for about the same arguments here, I personally changed the profile of the Cobra restoring ignore cover without restriction (this is still a D-Canon jesus!) and increasing his range to 45cm instead of 30cm.

This always leaves quite tricky to play but so much more interesting and playable !

I briefly introduced myself in the topic talking about titan pulsars.

Hope that will help you.

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 Post subject: Re: Cobra SHT
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:47 am 
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I flood myself...

And if all simply the profile Cobra remained as such in giving it ignores covered without restriction and allow the use of single column of the table AP barrage?

Because at the time of this charter for MA PB weapons, the unit was acceptable. Allowing it to touch on 5+ solo, 4+ in pairs or 6+ solo and 5+ in pairs on double movement that hit in a covered or not.

To make it look decent without touching its range, cost or power PB.

Actually, it's the best way for this unit IMO.

Comments ?

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 Post subject: Re: Cobra SHT
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:25 pm 
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I'd like to see it go to 3BP, personally. I think it's the best change that doesn't really alter it's role or intrude on that of any of the other EoVs.


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 Post subject: Re: Cobra SHT
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:28 pm 
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Why not but in this case it should be prohibited from playing in pairs. To be too powerful in my opinion.

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 Post subject: Re: Cobra SHT
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:07 pm 
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We will not take into account the assumptions of possible sequences of play imagining the reaction of the opponent. This is the best way to err in balancing unit.

Potentially a pair of Cobra at 3PB each, it's one extra BM to be under fire, that makes it already a little rascal. This is what I think it would make it too powerful.

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 Post subject: Re: Cobra SHT
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:08 pm 
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A pair of Cobras that are separate also generate 2 BM's when they attack a target... but you also get an extra activation out of splitting them up.

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 Post subject: Re: Cobra SHT
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:53 pm 
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One point according to your point of view.

However, if they are separated it did not have the same psychologic impact if they were function in the same formation.

But where this is essentially play is when the composition of the list. Have to play them separately asked to hold more choices available for support and thus limit the proliferation of such units if players decide they are very or too interesting.

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 Post subject: Re: Cobra SHT
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:00 pm 
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Quote:
However, if they are separated it did not have the same psychologic impact if they were function in the same formation.

Correct, it has more psychological impact because they are a greater threat when separate. :-P

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