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Cobra SHT

 Post subject: Re: Cobra SHT
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:15 am 
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Maybe they aren't supposed to march forward to be effective. Maybe staying behind other troops to deliver a smashing blow with their 4BP (with two of them) TK, Ignore cover and jumping back into cover with H&R is how they're supposed to be used...?

Can't say I'd be happy to see them shooting Terminator infantry in cover....

I think application is everything with this unit. If it's not working in a risky march that goes against how Eldar are supposed to play, that's telling me they aren't supposed to be used that way.


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 Post subject: Re: Cobra SHT
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:06 am 
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LordotMilk wrote:
Could we have the AC's thoughts on this?

Good luck with that.

The costing formula for multiple EoV's in one formation is certainly broken (there should be a multi buy discount ala IG SHT's).

When did Cobras lose ignores cover????!

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 Post subject: Re: Cobra SHT
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:00 am 
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Dobbsy wrote:
Maybe they aren't supposed to march forward to be effective. Maybe staying behind other troops to deliver a smashing blow with their 4BP (with two of them) TK, Ignore cover and jumping back into cover with H&R is how they're supposed to be used...?

Can't say I'd be happy to see them shooting Terminator infantry in cover....

I think application is everything with this unit. If it's not working in a risky march that goes against how Eldar are supposed to play, that's telling me they aren't supposed to be used that way.


The problem is that its to hit values are too low for double (and maybe advance), thats why you want to sustain. Also, with the range they have, double often doesn't get them close enough to shoot the enemy WE. And the short range usually forces them out in the open, where they are pretty defenseless, (5+ save, 5+ FF, no Fearless, 250 pts).

Note that Im not saying that they dont work when marching + sustain. I am saying that they work poorly and that they dont work at all when use in any other fashion. Of course you can always do the classic double + fire to place BM and then support an assault, but pretty much anything else is better in that role.

All the above applies, even with Ignore Cover on Infantry. I had not even registered that it had been removed. I suspect this has been done for fluff reasons, as the Cobra is really an Anti-We unit. The increase in range seems all the more necessary....

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 Post subject: Re: Cobra SHT
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 1:37 pm 
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LordotMilk wrote:
All the above applies, even with Ignore Cover on Infantry. I had not even registered that it had been removed. I suspect this has been done for fluff reasons, as the Cobra is really an Anti-We unit. The increase in range seems all the more necessary....


Cobras in pairs, with the current stats, seems to be the most effective way to use them.

I've seen them to be effective as "lurking" units, that stay in the Eldar back field, waiting for high value targets to come to them and then springing forward to strike... like a Cobra! *laugh* Their presence will greatly deter the advance of enemy war engines, at least in my experience.

That being said, I'd urge you to experiment, playtest and report on using them with a 15cm range boost and see how you feel about their effectiveness then and that will add hard data for analysis.

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 Post subject: Re: Cobra SHT
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 1:46 pm 
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Chroma : Were you the one who downgraded the Cobra? If so, when?

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 Post subject: Re: Cobra SHT
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 2:43 pm 
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Chroma wrote:
I've seen them to be effective as "lurking" units, that stay in the Eldar back field, waiting for high value targets to come to them and then springing forward to strike... like a Cobra! *laugh* Their presence will greatly deter the advance of enemy war engines, at least in my experience.

This is how Ginger tried to use them at Britcon this last weekend.


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 Post subject: Re: Cobra SHT
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 3:51 pm 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
LordotMilk wrote:
Could we have the AC's thoughts on this?

Good luck with that.

The costing formula for multiple EoV's in one formation is certainly broken (there should be a multi buy discount ala IG SHT's).

When did Cobras lose ignores cover????!


Would you see 625 pts for 3 EoV's? Would you see 450 for two? How would you word it?

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 Post subject: Re: Cobra SHT
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 4:05 pm 
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Tiny-Tim wrote:
This is how Ginger tried to use them at Britcon this last weekend.


How did this tactic turn out?

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 Post subject: Re: Cobra SHT
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 11:36 pm 
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IMO Cobras have to be built into a strategy (like many Eldar units and formations).
  • Cobras need to have other AT formations in support, and preferably to have some flexibility in how they are to be used.
  • There need to be at least two and preferably three or more Cobras working together, in order to allow for enemy action and poor activation
  • The list needs to be high on activations, preferably 3-4 more than opposing armies, in order to activate the Cobras safely.
  • There needs to be plenty of cover for them to manoeuver behind, or preferably to 'lurk' within (being DC3, they can afford to fail a dangerous terrain test in order to gain the -1 to hit modifier). Also they will typically need to march into position in order to sustain the following turn.
  • The bigger the target, the better they work. This is due to the E:A mechanics. However statistically, the number of TK hits scored by a single Cobra will always be less than the titans DC. This is why you need two or more in position.

My list had 21 activations:-
    4x Rangers
    4x Guardians
    4x Falcons / Firestorms
    4x Night-Spinners
    2x Cobras
    2x Vampires
    1x Aspects (Ex, Aut) as the BTS

My strategy was to pin the opposition into their own half, contest one or both enemy T&H Objectives to secure a 2-0 minimum victory while retaining the activation advantage to maintain various threats. The Night Spinners and Falcons are intended to disrupt or prevent major advances, the threat of their use pinning the enemy in their own table half, while the infantry and Cobras advance behind cover.

This strategy met with mixed success during the weekend. The threat of the combined firepower did scare off some opponents, but the brittle formations did suffer against armies with significant firepower. Poor objective placement meant that the Eldar were outmanoeuvered in other games, and this left the Cobras badly out of position and ineffective.

Ultimately E:A is a game of dice and luck as demonstrated by my last game against Orks. The use of a Great Gargant and large formations meant that I had an eight activation advantage that increased during the game. At the end of turn #3 the Great Gargant was Broken, down to a single DC in strength and had three fires.
It needed a 4+ to rally (which it passed), so I then rolled the dice to see what happened to the fires. . . . .

I am renowned for throwing "1"s, but on this occasion threw 3 "6"s, which meant that The Great Gargant survived, reducing my victory from 3-0 (TSNP, DtF, BTS) to 1-0 (DtF) - which was declared a straight draw as we had no time to play another turn.


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 Post subject: Re: Cobra SHT
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 11:47 pm 
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In answer to upgrading the stats;
  • The current 2 BP does work, but means that you need a second and preferably a third Cobra to make sure.
  • Increasing the weapon range would be my preference as it does not change the way things currently work.


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 Post subject: Re: Cobra SHT
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:13 am 
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You've rather reinforced the point that I was making that it doesn't need a rules change for it to be used successfully. I'm not sure that was ultimately your intention, but given the tactical explanation you've put forward, I'm now even more convinced that it should just be left alone.

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 Post subject: Re: Cobra SHT
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:55 pm 
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Irisado wrote:
You've rather reinforced the point that I was making that it doesn't need a rules change for it to be used successfully. I'm not sure that was ultimately your intention, but given the tactical explanation you've put forward, I'm now even more convinced that it should just be left alone.


The point is not that it cannot be used effectively. The point is that to use effectively you need to use un-eldar-like tactics, and that when you do the result is rarely decisive.

In 90% of the games you would have been better off with Scorpions.

The fact that EoVs do not have reduction for package purchases makes the problem a lot worse. How many times would you take a formation of 3 Cobras over a Gauntlet Phantom?

I would be in favor of 600 points 3 EoV formations with a 15 cm range increase on Cobras. Considering the potential impact of the reduction in points, perhaps we could start with 650 and see.

I will try the changes out, as well as the Pulsar change and come back here with reports.

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 Post subject: Re: Cobra SHT
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 4:30 pm 
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LordotMilk wrote:
The point is not that it cannot be used effectively. The point is that to use effectively you need to use un-eldar-like tactics, and that when you do the result is rarely decisive.


I don't see anything terribly un-Eldar like in the tactics used by Ginger above. Certain options will always play slightly differently within the army. It's akin to saying that all Eldar are really fragile and brittle, which is mostly true, but then there are the exceptions.

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In 90% of the games you would have been better off with Scorpions.


I think that what you really mean here is in ninety per cent of your games :). I'm not being deliberately picky when I say that, but it's important to realise that if you're going to make a convincing case to justify this statement, you're going to need data from far more players than yourself and/or your own gaming group (see below).

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I will try the changes out, as well as the Pulsar change and come back here with reports.


Go for it. I'll be interested to read your results. Could you put some battle reports up in the appropriate section of the forum, and post the links here? It would be good to see the types of opposition that you're going to go up against, and it will also make it interesting for other regular Eldar players to get involved in the debate based on their own in game experiences relative to yours.

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