Until all the original options have been thoroughly play tested, to see whether they are any good, I don't see the value in continuously adding or debating new ones. It just muddies the waters, and doesn't get us any further forward.

_________________

I'm late to the party here; it's been tought to find the time to reply in full, though I have been watching.

Some thoughts in Gingers change options.

This is quite possible.

I'm not willing to mess with the stats that are derived directly from the physical model. It just doesn't make sense.

Unless there's a solid reason for this change in the fluff, I'd consider it very unlikely. It doesn't mess with model-based characteristics, but is only a step away.

These characteristics are derived from the Scorpion hull. I won't mess with them.

Agreed. It's an option, but a last ditch one.

Another good option

You're aware this has already happened? This was the initial correction I made to the Cobra upon taking over the ACship.

Possible, but I'd prefer to try other avenues first. It fits the fluff IIRC, and would be desirable in that sense. The "another special rule" thing is the key IMO. It's on the table though.

Also on the table, though as you say it needs to have the average damage balanced against the potential damage.

I too feel that the TK(d6) leaves you with a hugely unreliable weapon - one that is difficult to balance because the average and maximum damage differ by so much. Against a Warlord an "average" roll (from a pair of Cobras) would be 4 * 1/3 * 3.5 = 4.667 DC. The maximum damage would be 24 though, enough to kill it outright.

I agree with Ginger that modifying the static component of the TK is a better option than changing the random component - at least upwards. Counterbalancing the static and random changes might be desirable - TK(d2+2) would be more reliable, and slightly higher in average damage - I'm considering it, though I don't think the d2 has a precedent in Epic.

Right now I view the options that affect the damage potential and the range modification as equally likely. Other options trail by a significant amount, but as always I'm open to persuasion.

Please, continue the discussion.

_________________
SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

I think BP would be key against Titans, it's +1 to hit (against all targets) for singletons.

Has the option to bypass shields/fields and similar been ditched?

No. I just feel wary about adding a one (maybe two if the titan D-cannon gets it) unit special rule. I'd prefer other avenues, as I said.

I do like the 3BP/cobra idea because it means a 1:1 template:tank ratio.

_________________
SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

In essence the "Cobra problem" boils down to two distinct areas:-

1) The likelyhood that the Cobra will be able to get into a position to be able to shoot - its reliability
2) The shooting ability and damage caused by the Cobra - its effectiveness

I agree that we cannot do much about the reliability of Cobras without changing something that is probably unacceptable, so we will have to get around that part of the problem by having multiple formations. (Note, 450 for a formation of 2x Cobras might just be possible, but even this messes with other discussions).

So, providing I can find some mug sporting opponent, I propose to try some tests using my "3 Cobra" army increasing the effectiveness of the Cobra by using 3BP, 45cm range and both TK(D3+2) and TK(D3+3).

The army is as follows, with either the Aspects or Guardians carried in one Vampire for air assaults on appropriate targets (retrieved by the other Vampire). Against titans the Aspects will be on the ground (for the SC re-roll). And the Falcons and Night Spinners provide long-range firepower and AA as required. It is probably a little sub-par as a tournament list, but will provide a reasonable test of the Cobras.

Biel Tan 3000 points

400 Aspects + Autarch + Exarch
250 Cobra
250 Cobra
250 Cobra
250 Falcons + Firestorms
250 Falcons + Firestorms
200 Vampire
200 Vampire
175 Night Spinner
175 Night Spinner
175 Rangers
150 Guardians
150 Guardians
125 Rangers

Let's hope that they get the chance to shoot over multiple turns, so that we can have a substantial set of results to look at.

Thanks for carrying out this play testing Ginger. It's good to know that some is happening.

_________________

You seem to be focusing a lot on how the cobra interacts with opposing warengines, without giving much consideration to the effects changes will have against other lists in general. Against a list focused on small formations of elite infantry and armour like marines for example a skimming TK barrage firing super heavy is a nightmare as it stands, if it got better I'd wager it'd be close to gamebreaking. Such is the peril of balancing increasingly diverse fan sourced lists...

I understand and sympathise with the concerns - to some extent. Indeed that was one of the reasons behind the original changes to the IC making it WE specific, and one of my original reasons behind retaining BP2.

The main issue at the moment is to try to make the Cobra work against WE - which is difficult at best. I intend to try some games against other armies as you suggest (and would suggest others assist as well), and if the boosts prove OTT against other troops, we can always re-introduce the IC restriction as a compromise.

That said, enemy that are 'elite heavy' will know about this danger, and will target the Cobras. Laying a BM on a Cobra reduces the likelihood of it activating to 2/3, and to 50:50 when retaining - which is part of the whole problem. And while upping the number of Cobras does increase the chance of them doing something, it also unbalances the makeup and strategy for the rest of the list.

The E-UK approach to buying spirit stones is also worth considering - though again you are paying an additional 25 points per formation, and this really impacts the number of Eldar activations; Cobras become even harder to use without an activation advantage as this gives the enemy more chances to destroy them.

I get you Ginger, it's more a gripe with the arms race that seems to happen with lists in general, the Banshee discussion is another example as well as many others. Too many special rules, to much desire to make everything an optimal choice. If we look back to the original Steel Legion, Codex Marine and Ork lists I think they've stood up pretty well without the reliance on excessive special rules or the need for everything to be brilliant.

If the Codex Marine list was done now Vindicators (almost never used) would likely be BP IC macro weapons, Land Raiders (rarely used) would be DC* warengines, Dreadnoughts (sub optimal) would likely be significantly better etc. etc. But those things aren't really necessary, while not optimal they add flavour to a list and that's enough.

If a Cobra is supposed to be for hunting warengines then make it a direct fire weapon, removing the BP aspect removes the knock on effects which cause it to be overpowered. However you end up with a floating shadowsword, it does the job but it becomes less interesting.

See where I'm coming from?

+1. IMO you either want the cobra to be an anti-WE unit, in which case you need to actually make it one (which it currently isn't, it's nothing to do with "balance") or you don't want it to be such a unit.

I agree that it is frustrating that everything has to be "best", and that is why I think the EUK banshees are as good as can be expected and am against new special rules. However, there is a difference between a unit that is sub-optimal or niche and therefore just adds a bit of flavour, and a unit that is both poor AND niche, and therefore is never used. It might as well not be in the list. I have my preference about what to do about it, but really I just would like to see something/anything done to help the thing actually see some action. Even then, I don't expect to see them in tournaments - people tend to take "all-comer" combinations and the cobra just isn't that type of unit.

_________________
Kyrt's Battle Result Tracker (forum post is here)
Kyrt's trade list

Personally one of my first experiences with 40k was reading the 2nd ed Eldar Codex and thinking how awesomely dangerous the Distortion Cannon was. Kill anything on a 3+? Yes please!

Sadly it was just too unreliable and short ranged, but the raw potential was there. But the D-cannon was an area weapon, so I think it's appropriate that a huge D-cannon is also an area weapon. For this reason I like 3BP the best of the fixes - the Cobra remains hard to use, but when you do get to fire it it's a lot more likely to do significant damage.

The smart thing to do would be to give the scorpion TK attacks and change the cobra to 45cm 2-3bp macro. Then they both actually perform a proper role.

Firstly TK has no business being part of a BP attack, if anything only orbital barrages have appropriate power.

Secondly any barrage weapon is due to the nature of the mechanics going to be better at killing infantry and armour, you up power it to try to kill warengines (square peg round hole) and all you really achieve is making it even better at killing infantry and armour, whilst leaving it still pretty crappy at killing warengines. Consider what it'll do to IG Russ companies, Terminators etc.

I'd suggest that the Cobra as stands is a pretty good unit (certainly not poor) it's just not being used right. With a 45cm Macro it'd be very effective in the appropriate role. If it doesn't find it's way into lists just because their are other better options is more an issue of overall list balance. Activation/unreliability arguements are irrelevant, 2+ activations are the most common in the game by a long shot and blast markers are hardly exclusive to Eldar.

Meer, Kyrt has explained the intention well. Banshees are never taken because they do not really fulfil any role - other Aspects are much better in most cases. Cobras can work - just - but tend to be frustratingly disappointing and generally fail to live up to their billing in the 'fluff'.

In both cases the intention is to try to improve them to the point whether they are at best a sub-par choice. I might add that both debates have literally been going on for years, and the use of 'special rules' to assist the Banshees was not taken lightly.

We are working under many constraints here, not least that the unit should generally work as described in the literature and 40K. While I sympathise with the suggestions about swapping the Scorpion and Cobra roles, this will not wash with the majority of players, who are relatively happy with the Scorpion and the way it represents the 'fluff' and also 40K rules.

This has always been the case, and increasing the TK damage has no impact at all on other troop types. Increasing to 3BP is debatable, and if considered OTT, replacing the Ignore Cover restriction would redress that particular element – so the change are deliberately geared not to do as you suggest.

I totally agree about trying several strategies to get the Cobra to work best, and have been trying for more than 4 years
The best I can do is the high activation approach to give the Cobra the best chance to approach and shoot without getting blown up.

And in comparison with Land Raiders (themselves considered sub-par in the Marines lists) it has weaker armour, shorter or equivalent striking range (up to 95 cm when doubling with 45cm shooting), poorer to-hit ratio, and of course it is less likely to activate. Put on OW, it can easily be avoided, especially so because of the Fixed Front arc of fire – need I go on?

A proper role ok, but not the role that the background gives to them.

I have really enjoyed the challenge of using Cobras. Love the idea of them, think of them as the EPIC equivalent of the German WWII StuG guns (which I have 'loved' for years/decades/ever).

Finally managed to report on one of my games using a pair of Cobras. Thought I'd just point towards that report here, some way down the thread, in case people have not seen it.

We used the current version (BP2, 30cm, IC against everything, 450 pts for a pair). The Eldar manage to take down a pretty well protected Ork Gargant but the Cobras, despite being on the correct flank did not manage to get within range to join in the carnage. They were still reasonably useful, although perhaps a slightly sub-optimal choice.

The key thing that still made them viable, was that they could operate in a secondary role taking out well protected infantry, in cover or with good armour. Given the whole D-cannon thing that seems reasonable to me. If a war-engine is particularly vulnerable to an area effect warp-rift then I don't really see how an infantry unit or three is going to dodge it. In an open tournament army when there may well be no enemy war-engines then having such a secondary role is essential.