Dark Eldar army type |
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dptdexys
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Post subject: Dark Eldar army type  Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 9:34 pm |
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If a force list like the Black Templars can be done to a good standard and their only war engines are T/hawks (inc. Anhililators)and Landing crafts.
Then surely a raiding force can be done to a similar standard with with only one or two small War engines of their own.
I believe they would need probably two,a heavy transport (Thunderhawk/Vampire/Landa role) and something with a decent punch (Anhililator/Scorpion/Shadowsword Role) or maybe a heavy Bomber along the lines of the tau Tigershark.
I imagine the Dark Eldar would work similar to an air assault SM army in epic with Lightning fast raids hitting hard and fast but having difficulty holding ground once the initial raids have ended.
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Xisor
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Post subject: Dark Eldar army type Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 11:55 pm |
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I think an excellent candidate for addition to the list is the 'Impaler Class Assault Module', the Dark Eldar 'strike craft' that has the potential to over-run an entire Starship...
We have the Harvester and the Manta, now we can have the Impaler 
Xisor
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vanvlak
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Post subject: Dark Eldar army type Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 9:19 am |
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It seems that the Raiding force is strongly on top, although many wouldn't mind the odd war engine. This would of course be limited in numbers. 1 per army? 1 per 2000 points? 1 for every two DE warrior cabals?
As for the type - skimming support craft, or knight/light Titan (maximum size = Revenant/Warhound)?
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Honda
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Post subject: Dark Eldar army type Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 2:38 pm |
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As for the type - skimming support craft, or knight/light Titan (maximum size = Revenant/Warhound)?
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I would propose "no legs" just like the Tau for any WE. I think the "Impaler" module that Xisor mentioned is an excellent start for a large air assault vehicle.
I also like the idea of a "Talos on crack". Something that could keep dangerous formations busy, while the raiders are gathering "toys".
However, I would caution us from developing "just another Epic" list. I think WE for this list should be "rare". I don't think they should be priced out to keep them rare, but only allow say 0-1 ToC and perhaps more of the Impaler.
The focus should remain on raiding and gathering booty. So, the standard raider should always be an attractive choice for vehicles, not just because they are forced on the list.
Also since this list should not perform to the same standards as other lists when it comes to objectives, then perhaps something that is DE specific to allow them to compete.
For example, the Necrons get to turn their Blitzkrieg objective into something different (i.e. Tomb) which modifies the behavior of their list. It's a minor thing, but a nice touch.
DE are not going to be a stand and die type of force (or at least they shouldn't be). So the question then might be, how do you make them "competitive" without forcing them to be like everybody else?
I don't have an answer for that right now, but it's something we should look into.
My two yen...
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Dwarf Supreme
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Post subject: Dark Eldar army type Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 3:55 pm |
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Honda, good point about DE objectives. They probably won't be concerned with grabbing and holding an objective.
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vanvlak
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Post subject: Dark Eldar army type Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 4:15 pm |
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| Quote (Dwarf Supreme @ 30 Dec. 2005 (15:55)) | | Honda, good point about DE objectives. They probably won't be concerned with grabbing and holding an objective. |
Agreed - they're interested in:
1 - taking slaves and captives
2 - pulling out their forces intact
3 - causing mayhem and distruction and loss of morale (points for blastmarkers placed?)
4 - destroying enemies which could somehow prove to be of danger to Comorragh
5 - capturing what they consider to be of value - Eldar hardware, perhaps?
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Xisor
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Post subject: Dark Eldar army type Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 6:34 pm |
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| Quote (vanvlak @ 30 Dec. 2005 (15:15)) | Agreed - they're interested in:
1 - taking slaves and captives
2 - pulling out their forces intact
3 - causing mayhem and distruction and loss of morale (points for blastmarkers placed?)
4 - destroying enemies which could somehow prove to be of danger to Comorragh
5 - capturing what they consider to be of value - Eldar hardware, perhaps? |
Well, I agree largely with 1, because that's what they come for.
?Do not offer them gold, they do not come for
riches. Do not offer them surrender, they do not
come for victory. Offer them nothing, they come only
for your souls.?
Now, that's what we should be looking at 'idealising' with the list.
Now, some things on the Impaler Assault Module, from the BFG article(seen here: http://www.specialist-games.com/battlef....dar.pdf ):
The Impaler is a specialised form of prow
mounted attack craft, a little like an assault boat,
but large enough to carry enough Dark Eldar
assault troops to potentially overwhelm an
entire ship.
Now, from the section on the Corsair class Escort(escorts are not used in Epic Spacecraft sections so far, so there is no need to 'require' a starship to allow the Impaler to be an 'orbital lander' IMO), we have this:
"These Dark Eldar escorts are also notable in that, despite their compact
size they also possess the ability to launch a form of attack craft - a kind
oversized assault boat known as the Impaler. The use of such devices is
virtually unknown in the escorts of other races."
So, that should give and idea as to what kind of thing we're dealing with. Look for something Manta Sized, or slightly smaller(though the Impaler module for the DE starships is larger than a Manta, it seems we need to work out just what size to look at it with!).
Now, when thinking of it, deployments of Impalers are often enough to "cripple" and overwhelm entire starships. (NB- Cripple in an arbitrary sense, not the strict BFG sense)
I firmly believe the Impaler is one of the key features for the list, and getting it thrased out(or getting a few varying possibilities out there for folks to think about) is very important.
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vanvlak
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Post subject: Dark Eldar army type Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 6:39 pm |
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Oh dear - I feel a sdden urge to build one of these beasties.... what was the span of the Manta again, please? 
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Dwarf Supreme
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Post subject: Dark Eldar army type Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 7:20 pm |
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vanvlak
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Post subject: Dark Eldar army type Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 8:34 pm |
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Xisor
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Post subject: Dark Eldar army type Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 10:19 pm |
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Dropship wouldn't 'really' work as an objective as all they need to do is to open a webway portal and ship them back. DE use the Webway alot more skillfully(and often) on the battlefield than Craftworlders, so these should play a big part too.
See the stuff on the GW Websites on them in 40k, look for 'The Tortuer's Tale', an excellent piece which should give a good idea...
Xisor
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Xisor
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Post subject: Dark Eldar army type Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 5:49 am |
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Apols for double posting, but it is an entirely seperate reply.
Now, I had a wee brainstorm about the Impaler, and decided on this as a 'starting point':
Impaler Assault Module- 500pts
500pts(No idea here to be honest)
Type Speed Armour Close Combat Firefight
Support Craft 35cm 3+ 6+ 5+
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
Disintegrator Array 45cm 3* AP4+/AP6+ FFA
Phantom Lance 60cm MW3+ Lance, Titan Killer D3, FFA
Destroyer Array 75cm 2BP Disrupt, FFA
Notes: Damage Capacity 10, Support Craft, Planetfall, Reinforced Armour, Fearless, 2* Webway Portals, Transport Capacity 20 Units (Vehicles & War Engines count as 2 Units)
Critical Hit: The Webway Portals mechanisms are obliterated, they may not be used for the remainder of the game and the Impaler suffers a further point of damage.
NOTE: Webway Portals on the Impaler allow further units to be deployed from the Impaler as if it itself were the Portal.
Deployment It is taken as part of the Air/Orbital support section(1 3rd the army as usual) and costs 500pts.
The thinking is...
1- Support Craft. Doesn't seem appropriate to have it as anything else, it's simply too big!
2- Hefty transport capacity. Why? It can over-run an entire ship, should most things go in it's favour!
3- Webway Portals, probably should have a few more of them in the army, but this seems a safe palce to start.
4- Weapons fixed forward, basically to keep it's focus. It's not really meant for engaging much more than it's target. It has armour and speed to avoid things otherwise.
5- On the subject of it's weapons, this thing has to take out/damage/'scare' some of the heftier formations so that the lighter formations it's deploy stand a chance to survive after being 'released'.
Now, I quite suspect that this is an almost insane piece of work, so I'll happily recieve any and all criticisms on it...I'm only forwarding it as a place to 'start' the idea.
A couple of thoughts though:
- How much of a bonus to the Dark Eldar armour do we give based upon their 'high speed' antics? Alot, a little, nothing, a ton?
- How will the 'formation selection' be restriced?
Xisor
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Honda
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Post subject: Dark Eldar army type Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 3:51 pm |
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I realize we are still conceptualizing, but the Impaler as defined above kind of blew me away. It struck me as way over the top and very "titan-ish". However as you pointed out, we have to start somewhere.
I guess I'll go on to the finer points:
The thinking is...
1- Support Craft. Doesn't seem appropriate to have it as anything else, it's simply too big!
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I think support craft is appropriate but not for the reasons listed above. I'll elaborate later.
Also, we might consider disassociating ourselves from existing hardware and call it something different. Just to get us started, I was thinking about edged weapons, so something along the lines of Glaive or Scimitar or what ever else people come up with.
JMO
2- Hefty transport capacity. Why? It can over-run an entire ship, should most things go in it's favour!
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I think I would lean more towards "moderate" transport, moderate size. More along the lines of a Thunderhawk with less armor and less weapons, although those weapons present should be painful, to keep in line current DE methodologies.
Also "moderately sized" means you should be able to take more than one or two, so I'm guessing we should shoot for something in the 200 point range.
I think a statement was made that one of these "Impalers" can usually take out another ship. I would caution us to not equate this capability with size. After all, DE are reknowned for the close combat capabilities, so they should be effective, but not assumed to be effective because they bring loads and loads of troops.
So instead, we might consider, something smaller that carries a decent amount of fairly brutal CC (and moderate FF) value troops. Sort of a group of Bruce Lee's and Lucy Liu's with blades and drugs.
3- Webway Portals, probably should have a few more of them in the army, but this seems a safe palce to start.
At first I thought "no way", but then later decided "way". Planetfalling portals is one way for the DE to appear all at once swamping the defense and taking advantage of the attendant confusion.
4- Weapons fixed forward, basically to keep it's focus. It's not really meant for engaging much more than it's target. It has armour and speed to avoid things otherwise.
Fixed forward arcs is fine, it's more "raiderish". However, the statement of "armor and speed" are incongruous with DE. DE are all about speed. Armor isn't in their dictionary.
5- On the subject of it's weapons, this thing has to take out/damage/'scare' some of the heftier formations so that the lighter formations it's deploy stand a chance to survive after being 'released'.
I think scary weapons loads are consistent with DE. In 40K, nobody laughs at the DE weaponry, especially if you are a space marine player. DE eat the space marines (or any well armored force) for lunch.
Now, I quite suspect that this is an almost insane piece of work, so I'll happily recieve any and all criticisms on it...I'm only forwarding it as a place to 'start' the idea.
Not at all, you should be commended for taking a shot at this. It is obviously not that easy to interpret general comments and produce something tangible.
A couple of thoughts though:
- How much of a bonus to the Dark Eldar armour do we give based upon their 'high speed' antics? Alot, a little, nothing, a ton?
My vote is for none. Lots of different units move fast in this game and weapon systems are to a point where its not that big an issue. Again, we might add a rule to allow things like "cloaking" or something like that, but I don't think there is a simple way to cost that ability and therefore we ought to leave that alone. I made this comment on one of the other threads and I still think it's some place we shouldn't go.
Make the vehicles light, cheap, and fast. Put nasty weapons on them, but don't give them armor, that is not what DE are about.
- How will the 'formation selection' be restriced?
I think we're getting a little ahead of ourselves. Let's get the vehicle stats agreed upon, then we can take a stab at costing it.
Once we have a list we can work with and playtest, then we can fiddle with restrictions.
My two yen...and again, thank you for taking a shot at this.
Don't you have enough, van! 
