Consolidation is always 5cm regardless of speed, isn't it?

Counter-charge can be 10cm for faster units.

......

I played against Tim's fielding of the arty/tanks BT list with my generic Guard last night, for a 0-2 loss (thanks Reaver, for failing a 2+ activation and not nuking his Falcon formation!).

Next time I face it, I'll bring Marines.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

Sorry not to clear on the above. Yes, that correct unless you are eldar, were you are allow to make up to a full move( In addition Eldar formations that wins an assault are allowed to move any distance up to their speed value when they consolidate, rather than being limited to a move of 5cm as would normally be the case.)....The talk was to change the up to a full move after a engagement to either 10 cm or 20 cm depending on their speed and not as currently written....for example Infantry with speed 15cm would move 10cm and Falcon that moved 35cm would move 20cm.....

So another battle report coming hey .....

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Regards
Greg

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Not against change, so long as it done fairly and no one is left behind....

I'm human and not a !@#$%^# Robot..

The proposed changes would kill Wave Serpent mounted lists (3 mounted Guardians and 1 mounted Aspects as the core of 3k) which is sad as they're not even considered broken.

I seem to have been asleep when I typed my previous post. Ignore me. :-)

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

So, I need to put down some notes about my game last week with E&C.

Using the list initially posted on page 1 I faced off against Steel Legion.
Mech Company
Infantry Company + Hydra
Infantry Company
Deathstrikes
Basilicks
Hydras
Storm Troopers
Sentinels
Roughriders
Thunderbolts
Thunderbolts
Reaver (BTS)

Now with the terrane set up that we had it was not possible to place the Eldar Blitz in the centre of the back line and hide my forces in cover. So I picked one of the other available places and set up my Blitz towards the right flank. E&C mirrored my play and his Blitz went on his right flank. Followed by his TnH objectives in front of his Blitz.

This left me with a problem, if I placed my artillery around my blitz I wouldn’t be able E&C’s Blitz and thus give him a safe place to put his artillery. In the end I split my forces and hid my Void Spinners on my left flank behind some woods with a Sword of Vaul formation for protection.

Prior to this E&C had garrisoned both of his Infantry Companies, Sentinels and Roughriders, with both infantry companies on overwatch.

Turn 1 started as most would expect, Strategy to Eldar, Void Spinners shoot. First shot was at the Deathstrikes, 1 hit 1 dead, broken. Second shot was at the Basilicks, 1 hit 1 dead, broken. Third activation a Scorpion doubled, moved, shot, moved back. Whilst moving the first time I goaded E&C into using one of his overwatch shots which caused a wound and 2 BMs. Scorpion shot at the Hydra formation and destroyed 2 tanks breaking the formation. So three activations and three broken IG formations plus one Guard activation burnt. E&C played a refused flank and pushed forward on his right flank whilst I was cautious activating my right flank and got left behind. I pushed forward both of the Shining Spears at the end of the turn looking to set up a sweeping set of engagements in turn two to clear the centre of the table and box E&C in on his right flank. By the end of the turn the Deathstrikes, Basilicks, Sentinels, Hydras and Roughriders were all broken. Some rallied, but the Deathstrikes would fail all three turns.

Turn 2 saw the Eldar lose the Strategy and the Guard activated something. The follow up was the Reaver striding into the Eldar half to strike down a Void Spinner. Unfortunately, it failed to activate and could only shoot up the (non-BTS) Shining Spears. The Eldar continued to shoot up the Guard but were being squeezed on the left flank whilst the right flank finally started to spread out.

Turn 3 saw the Guard finally start to kill Eldar formations with both Falcon formations and a Void Spinner plus the smaller Rangers being lost, but they had lost transports and were unable to stop the Shining Spears sweeping around the back to claim the Blitz whilst holding a further objective in the Guard half. The Guard held one objective in the Eldar half and were just unable to activate enough units to break a Scorpion contesting a second to lessen the loss.

All in all it ended up a straight forward win for the Eldar, not big, but another win and I can easily see why people would not want to face it – Three formations broken before you even get to do anything is always a killer. However, it was quite scary with all the garrisoned guard and I ending up splitting my forces to guarantee that I could carry out counter battery fire which almost backfired on me. Things could have been very different with a couple of different dice rolls.

E&C wants to have a go with his tournament Marine list so I’ll make sure we take some photographs for this one as I’m sure it will hurt

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www.epic-uk.co.uk - home of the UK Epic tournament scene
NetEA NetERC Xenos Lists Chair
NetEA Ork + Feral Ork + Speed Freak Champion

Further on from the above I am getting the feeling that Void Spinners should suffer a further increase in cost to say 300pts as a first (small) change to the list.

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www.epic-uk.co.uk - home of the UK Epic tournament scene
NetEA NetERC Xenos Lists Chair
NetEA Ork + Feral Ork + Speed Freak Champion

I do think that list is stronger against ground pounders and steel legion in particular. Would be interesting to see it against krieg who can shrug off the barrage a bit more plus anything with a solid air assault.

Agree with Rug on unintended consequences of proposed consolidate changes. This will also take a serious nerf bat to regular jet bikes, eldar titans, and swooping hawks none of which I believe are causing issues at the moment.

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so your feeling on it going to 325 points for it and rising the Night spinners to 200 ?

Also thank-you for the report and to your group in doing Battle reports, it much appreciated...

And to those who have taken the time to leave feed back..that also much appreciated...keep it coming..

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Regards
Greg

*************************************************

Not against change, so long as it done fairly and no one is left behind....

I'm human and not a !@#$%^# Robot..

Hi gents,

The point with the void spinners is the opponents frustration of getting his counter assets destroyed or broken immediately without getting the chance of using them at least once. Resulting in wasted points and lost activations. Like you never even fielded them.

So raising points will change nothing with that fact, except that biel tan might have an activation less.

The key is toning the voidspinner rightly. Cutting range would be an obvious choice but then there will be no favour over night spinners anymore. Taking disrupt away might work but will result in a no flavour artillery piece. Imho the best viable way would be to reduce the BP to 2.
It would increase the survivability of the target and it further use in the game quite a bit. Moving the average hits on a 3 av formation to 1. Still giving it 2 bm but most likely not breaking it instantly. Also rallying that formation becomes quite substantially more propable thus keeping it in the game..

My two cents

Yes, I can agree with all of your points. I have had Steve54 do that to me several times in tournaments. One counter is to try and split the Eldar artillery by moving your artillery to different places. The range of the Void Spinners is such that they can not be placed anywhere and still hit the whole of the table as say Manticores, Basilicks and Deathstrikes.

And I definitely agree that catching infantry out in the open is murder for them, but it can be the same for any infantry facing artillery.

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www.epic-uk.co.uk - home of the UK Epic tournament scene
NetEA NetERC Xenos Lists Chair
NetEA Ork + Feral Ork + Speed Freak Champion

Steel legion is a dream match up for Void spinners as you've got a +2 to go first and then small formations to target in artillery+deathstrikes. VS are lot less effective against SM and the range of lists which can now field spaceships with pinpoint attacks.

I could see VS being raised to 300 but not much more than that. 50pts or removing disrupt would be a pretty significant nerf to a list that where there isn't a consensus that its OTT.

As Rug has mentioned the change I would be most against is the hit and run changes which neuter the WS build and also use of the Warlock. I've not seen it mentioned particularly as an issue either.
What's the idea behind the War walker, firestorm and prism changes?

If we want to cut the falcons down a bit remove the ability to boost the formation to 6.

Have any of the original group that had issues with the list tried the tactical suggestions that were presented to combat biel tan lists of this type?

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NetEA NetERC Human Lists Chair
NetEA Chaos + Black Legion Champion

So I feel that as well as discussing possible changes to the B-T list we should be also highlighting some of the ways to at least mitigate if not counter the sneaky Eldar tactics. With this in mind here are my thoughts of if I was using a different army and came up against an Eldar artillery heavy list (such as on page 1) what I would be aiming to do.

Marines - Spaceship barrage to hit likeliest set up position - If they are not there then they are not set up in the optimum place and might then be sniped another way. Plus with TSKNF I would be attacking the softer formations first rather than worrying about the artillery hidden behind cover, AA & scouts.

Other Eldar - Beard-off, I'd risk my aircraft to hit the Artillery. Spread out the objectives and force the artillery to split, if they don't then I have a small set of safe deployment zones to then break out. If I win set up then corners is a possibility, but that depends on the force I'm playing.

Chaos - More difficult to counter with, but again using a spaceship will make your opponent think. Push forward with the light war engines to hit the lighter formations and spread out the remainder to minimise the artillery initially. Push all forces forward to trap the Eldar back and then start to take activations off them. Depending on the number of teleporters that I have I might look at an Alpha strike that way, but this is a high risk strategy.

Tau - Don't really play but again it is spread out look to get Marker Lights on to formations to then hit them hard. Spacecraft pinpoint attacks.

Orks - Swamp um. Push forward with formations and keep the Eldar pinned back. Yes, you'll take casualties but orks always do. Oddboy weapons are great at picking small war engines off or hitting Swords of Vaul to allow your aircraft to fly in and further hit them until you want to bring in the loaded Landa and smash the Spinners.

Imperial Guard - Spread out, garrison and squeeze the Eldar. Pick on the Falcons/Firestorms to allow your aircraft the chance to hit the artillery.

Tyranids - Swamp um. Same as with the Orks, You are going to take losses, but you have to just push everything forwards to squeeze the Eldar back. Lictors & Trygons are a great threat and don't be afraid to snipe with the Harridans whilst your force pushes up the table.

Necrons - Spacecraft pinpoint attacks. Teleport and swamp. If you can get within 30cm of the artillery so that they can not indirect fire....


AND the big thing for all lists is to win the roll off for every turn so you can do what you want and stop the Eldar artillery from disrupting your battle plan.


Anyway feel free to add or rubbish what I've said above.

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www.epic-uk.co.uk - home of the UK Epic tournament scene
NetEA NetERC Xenos Lists Chair
NetEA Ork + Feral Ork + Speed Freak Champion

Going to 300 points is a big change as it forces pretty much every competitive biel Tann build to drop and activation - that's no small beer for a list which relies on being able to out activate its opponents and whose units tend to start dropping off really quickly once they get engaged.

I agree that an artillery heavy steel legion list is a bit of a dream match up for the Biel Tann list in question so not sure I'd read too much into that one (similar to if I see an air assault marine list when I'm playing as BT - its a rock to my scissors in match up terms). I'd be very interested to see that face off against Krieg though.

Agree - the loss of counter battery is a big blow against that list. Interestingly, that was one of the things which kept me in the game when I played Tim with squats - Void spinners can shoot at a colossus all day long as far as I care and I still get my artillery fire back at him! I took care to try and keep the aggressive half of my army in range of only one of his barrage units to limit the damage caused.

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What might be worth noting is that I don't think our game was an auto-win for the Eldar, it could have gone quite differently with only minor changes in luck (eg: my Reaver failing to activate (needing 2+) on turn 2 to attack his tanks, which meant it was then not in a position to attack his artillery park on the next turn when I won the roll-off. Or rolling 7x 6's for disrupt attacks with my Valkyries' Disrupting barrage only to then roll zero 4+'s to manage a single hit requiring a 7, leaving both affected formations unbroken, etc.).

A 2-0 win is entirely within the norm of what could be expected when Tim and I throw dice at each other; Tim's under the impression that this kind of tank/arty Eldar list would find it hard to win by a large margin, which doesn't help it come top of the table under the UK tournament scoring system.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

Tim, are you planning to switch armies and let E&C/CAA take the eldar out for a spin? I think that would help back out any potential player skill level issues.... (please don't think I'm disparaging either of the other gents here, just being rigorous!)

I find that when using IG it's often best to place your arillery/deathstrikes right in the back corners of the deployment zone as it's often somewhere the void spinners can't hit

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