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2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues

 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:05 pm 
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Good to hear some positive direction on this.

Norto wrote:
[snip]The only decent cover on the table was in range for his guardians to get to and unleash a avatar. It failed hard but i still gave up a firewarrior unit trying to take out the farseer to keep him at bay. didnt pay off.

Vassal would be an ideal mechanism to demonstrate battlfield layouts used in the different communities. Pictures of the empty tables would be even better, provided they can be taken from above the table rather than from the side. Could this be arranged?

One nagging question in my mind, how to replicate true line of sight on vassal, as used in the Aussie meta?


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:24 pm 
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You can't and from everything posted it really doesn't seem to be the core issue

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:39 pm 
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OT, but we just discuss what blocks line of sight before hand. So woods buildings etc block los in vassal. Haven't really played with many titans on vassal though. So i think it would be the same as in the uk.
Cheers
Jim


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:27 pm 
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Thanks both jimmies. If TLS is only an issue for Titans, then I guess the agreed definitions relevant to the particular game can be declared at the start of the vassal game.


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:54 am 
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Hey Lads

Here are few summaries including lists and results for my Biel Tan lists from the last three years at Cancon.
viewtopic.php?f=84&t=32266&p=609248#p609248
I hope it helps shed some more light.

Cheers

Mic


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 4:20 pm 
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Red corsair - biel tan batrep
viewtopic.php?f=84&t=32269

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 4:34 pm 
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From testing the list a few times in the last few weeks my impressions are that it's a solid list in the UK meta but not an OTT build or even a powerful elder build.

It is excellent at dealing with lists that have come to shoot rather than assault, lack the movement to threaten it, lack activation numbers or have padded the activation count with very small formations and have a lower SR - or some combination of these. This seems to play well against the lists that it comes up against in the meta that has reported problems.
Conversely in the UK meta we seem to be far more assault orientated, have much more air assault and flyers and more spaceships -all of which prey on weaknesses in the build we are talking about. That's not intended as a criticism of any meta, I'm sure some powerful UK list would struggle out of their meta.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:34 pm 
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Hey steve
Thanks for playtesting. We do tend to shy away from those types of airaslt builds. Especially after myself and shadowlord took two landas fiilled with marine badness to two consecutive cancons ( i did it first) and the subsequent rise in horde armies and AA across the meta.
Even though you saw the list as balanced, do you agree that the void spinner is under costed to its peers?
Cheers
Jim


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 1:05 am 
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Played the reverse of the Tau game this week (i.e. I took the tau). Didn't finish, would have gone to turn 4. Eldar won the strategy rolls every turn this time and there were quite a few casualties, but despite wiping out a few formations couldn't make it pay, especially after an overstretched aspect assault bounced in T3.

Void Spinners did OK turn 1 severely restricting 2 FW formations (forcing them to marshal on the baseline), but one died to spaceship and the other did very little in T2 and T3 - using a reroll and only placing 1 BM. So mixed bag really, which is fairly typical my experience with VS as they only have 1 template and retaining is a risk with init 2+. I find VS are fantastic for the threat they pose and effect on deployment etc, but only sometimes live up to it :) Avatar did a good job in this game though, munching broadsides on his own.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 2:41 am 
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Thanks for the feed back guys....and Battle reports...

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 9:39 am 
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Kyrt wrote:
Avatar did a good job in this game though, munching broadsides on his own.

The avatar has done well in 'all' of the several games we've had recently (though i'm happy to chalk that up to my inexperience with the lists used by both sides)

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 11:16 am 
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Ginger wrote:
Good to hear some positive direction on this.

One nagging question in my mind, how to replicate true line of sight on vassal, as used in the Aussie meta?



Hey Ginger, as carefully as I can say, and without re-igniting the discussion over terrain again, the phrase "True-line-of-sight" was a phrased first used by myself, and it started quite a runaway flame war.

It was a poor choice of words on my part, I meant it to mean that the tourney was using ordinary by-the-book terrain rules rather than houseruled terrain set up.

To clarify, the Australian scene doesn't use any 'weird houserules' or 'strange terrain meta' - by and large it's pretty much exactly the same boring way that UK and the rest of the world plays.

I hope that makes it easier to compare battle reports across different continents.


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:50 pm 
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JimXII wrote:
Hey steve
Thanks for playtesting. We do tend to shy away from those types of airaslt builds. Especially after myself and shadowlord took two landas fiilled with marine badness to two consecutive cancons ( i did it first) and the subsequent rise in horde armies and AA across the meta.
Even though you saw the list as balanced, do you agree that the void spinner is under costed to its peers?
Cheers
Jim


Is it more than 25pts better than the other engines of Vaul? Probably but that's because it fills a vital role for BT with the only non-spaceship barrage to hit the opponents deployment zone. Storm serpents+Cobras fulfil very difficult roles and only really fit in lists built especially around them and the Scorpion is in an AT role where there are other options available.

Against the right list - lower SR, small formations - especially artillery, they are really good. Against WE heavy armies or SM they are pretty average.

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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 9:13 pm 
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No problem Elsaurio, and I appreciate your response.
As I said earlier, it only requires the vassal players to explain how they are treating this aspect in the preamble to their game. No need to expand any further here.


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 Post subject: Re: 2017 - Biel-Tan List Issues
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 10:02 pm 
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Steve54 wrote:
Is it more than 25pts better than the other engines of Vaul? Probably but that's because it fills a vital role for BT with the only non-spaceship barrage to hit the opponents deployment zone. Storm serpents+Cobras fulfil very difficult roles and only really fit in lists built especially around them and the Scorpion is in an AT role where there are other options available.

Against the right list - lower SR, small formations - especially artillery, they are really good. Against WE heavy armies or SM they are pretty average.
Good analysis Steve.
The Void Spinner has long been recognised as being slightly better than the other EoV, hence the 25 point points hike. I agree that should be sufficient for a single unit in the army.

The issue being raised is really about spamming Void Spinners, and whether they are more more effective in larger numbers. This is inherently linked to the triple retain - so in the worst case allowing the BT player to get three shots off against the enemy for no reply.
Put another way, in a game, assuming they get to shoot three times, are they worth 275, 550 or 825 points - will they destroy or disable an equivalent amount of enemy formations?
Obviously this depends on how they are used and they kind of targets, but their Disrupt ability will be much more effective against broken targets.

This raises a slightly'wacky' thought, should Void Spinners be +25 points for each additional unit , eg 275, 300, 325? Alternatively, should there be a limit on the number that can be bought in an army?

Personally I am not convinced, but thought I would raise the questions.
The main reason I am not sure about either is that they occupy a slot in the army, and that prevents using another formation. For this reason I cannot recollect ever seeing an army with three VS in it, even at Britcon where we use 4K armies.


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