Hurrah! My Marines have been on the receiving end of the Eldar Titan Clan on numerous occasions, so great to see some further movement.



I'm glad to see some changes here – from my experience the Pulsar was always the go-to weapon, so seeing some improvements to the others along with some new weapons with different emphases (anti-personnel, for example) is great. I'm also pleased to see the power fist lose its ranged attack – while backed-up by previous editions, it always sat a bit oddly with me.

The new additions look good, but have you considered changing the names to avoid confusion with other Eldar weapons? The Starcannon, for example, already exists elsewhere in the Epic lists. Perhaps you might change it to Titan Suncannon? That's the name of a weapon on the new 'Wraithknight' from 40k; it'd be a nice way to introduce a new weapon with a link to a 'canon' weapon.

The addition of the sword would be cool – I'd suggest that it adds more Extra Attacks, but that are just MW. This would differentiate it from the power fist somewhat and give it a different role.



No, I think this is an important weakness of the list – all the Titan lists struggle with contesting objectives early on, and the Eldar are relatively quick (ameliorating this problem); so I'd leave it as-is.


Relating to both of these points, the original Codex Titanicus mentioned that 'Because of the high degree of co-ordination afforded by having the crew in deep mental rapport, various functions are performed more efficiently than would be possible for a Human Titan crew. One such function is repair, and Phantoms gain a +1 bonus to all repair rolls'.

I realise it's very old background relating to outdated rules, and that the Phantom is only mentioned specifically because it was the sole Eldar model at the time, but I thought it offered a nice opportunity to give the Phantom repair as a special rule exclusive to it. This gives it an advantage over the Warlock (it can be explained that the Warlock's Wraithcircuit is tied up in maintaining the psychic link or something, while the Phantom's is free).

This'd give the Phantom a distinctive role as a more martial, aggressive Titan and explain why it's the mainstay in Eldar forces, and lead the Warlock into slightly more of a support role, which fits the background nicely.

If you're concerned with it causing imbalance with other lists, it could be an upgrade exclusive to the Phantom in the ETC list – called 'Triplet crew', 'Steersman', 'Mental Rapport' or similar.


Bonesinger
Relating to the above point, I like SpeakerToMachines' idea that the Bonesinger provides an Invulnerable Save to the equipped Titan. Nice and simple, and adds another option.

The thing that's always put me off Eldar Titans is the lack of customisability compared to Imperial or Ork equivalents. Your new weapons and potential for some options to make individual Titans more interesting (and removing no-brainer weapon combos)will make hte list a lot more interesting.


Knights
STM's suggestions on Knights look good to me too.


General note
I like the combination of older material with newer material, so is there space for the Wraithknight? I'm not a particular fan of the thing, but I think it's important to offer players as many options as possible, as it could be the thing that gets a new player into the game.

The rules could be very similar to a Fire Gale, but perhaps with Wraithsight and some different weapon options. I'd suggest Suncannon (a lower-powered version of the Titan Suncannon you have above) and shimmershield; or twin Wraithcannons (some short-ranged TK weaponry).

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I'm not worried about spam, it's more a matter of providing a good reason for taking them in pairs.


In other lists, it also comes with Inspiring, Invulnerable save and +1 EA MW. For a plain Supreme Commander, I think 50 points is a fairer price.


Will try it as is. However, my usual list building starts with constructing the Titans I'd like (based on model availability and what I think are appropriate upgrades for the force or mission story), and then filling up to the points limit with auxiliary forces. In this list, all the small pebbles (except scouts) are in the Titan upgrades.


OK


I don't think garrisoning is appropriate either, as long as the big gate is available.


Both seems a bit odd, Eldars don't strike me as a "regenerating" or "self-repairing" force. Isn't it simpler to just emphasize the resilience of Wraithbone? If you think Inv save is not enough, let the Bonesinger grant the Phantom a 4+RA instead.


They do feel a little homeless, don't they?


I think the Towering Destroyer is to all intents and purposes a Wraithknight... Or perhaps a Wraithknight is a Towering Destroyer + Fearless but with an Ini drop?



You're welcome. Now, to find an opponent that won't run screaming at the sight of two or more Eldar Titans...

Regenerate D6 DC??? Thats crazy talk!

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agreed!!

I'm with StoM, make it give a 4+ RA save instead

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Had a playtest recently with the older version of the list in order to refresh ourselves for future playtesting once 2.3 is released. Fairly simple game that highlights a few of the issues we're addressing here – Warlock BTS/SC, overemphasis on MW TK weaponry, shooty power fist.

His list: Warlock with psychic lance and power fist, Phantom with two pulsars, Phantom with pulsar and power fist, pair of revenants with pulse lasers. My list was an AMTL list with three Reavers, two sentinel packs and some Thunderbolts.

Game played fairly evenly, with Titans being taken out on a tit-for-tat basis, until I won on objectives (2–1) by grabbing take and hold with sentinels.

2.3

It's worth noting that a SC is proportionally more valuable in an army with fewer formations (failures are more critical) and in one where the majority initiative is 1+. Also, access to Farsight means the Eldar Titan Clan rarely need worry about rerolls. I think 75's a fair price.

Phoenix bomber – Glad to hear it'll remain consistent.

Garrisoning – I agree with SpeakerToMachines; it's not particularly appropriate.

Bonesinger – Not convinced on the suggested changes, as they seem a bit extreme. If the intention is to give the Phantom a minor boost in order to improve it against the Warlock, perhaps you could look elsewhere?

My main objection to better armour or regenerating is that it's frustrating for the other player. It's already hard enough to hurt Eldar Titans. When you do, and they immediately regenerate, it's disheartening. I'd much prefer Phantoms to get something that helps them dish out damage, or improvement to morale or something, than another boost to their survivability.

Knights – For the record, neither I nor my Eldar Titan Clan-playing friend are fussed about Knights (the older ones or the new Wraithknight). I mention them only because they're included in the list. If you're not enthusiastic about them, I'd suggest you remove them. That 'frees them up' for a real Knight enthusiast to make another list (perhaps themed to Exodites, perhaps standalone, perhaps an alternative Titan Clan list).

Looking forward to 2.3!

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While not an expert by any means on the titan clans, one opportunity that I (and therefore potentially some others) would like to see if you are updating the titan weapon options is the return of the lascannon (or more correctly these days bright lance) wing weapon option. I think trading in one of the missile launcher wings for an improvement in AT is a reasonable option in some cases. My opinion might be biased by the fact that I have two of them on the paint desk now though.

I'd also personally rather see war walkers as options over wraithlords, as they fit the scouting role that these support units would have.
The only other thing that I would like to see are some jetbikes. But then my Eldar are red...

Bonesinger Upgrade Ability Thingy - not sure its needed if the intent was to encourage phantoms to be taken. Additional weapons options will do that won't they? Perhaps if people want to keep it, it removes an additional blast marker (although that usually isn't a problem with these guys is it?) or similar.

+1 on steersman for the record.

Anyway nice work here guys, look forward to trying it out.

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Agreed; another option is always welcome. It means the Eldar player gets another decision to make – maintain the flak umbrella, or go for more direct damage?


This makes a lot of sense. Is it simply legacy that Wraithlords are so heavily present in this list?

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I think it's also that the old plastic models are much more common. War Walkers make more sense to me too, but I think it's a problem that we keep tweaking lists in a way that makes them harder for some people to use. AMTL is considering dropping Sentinels for Crusaders, for example. Who in the world has 6mm Crusaders? The atomization of army lists so that you can out together 80% of several lists but 100% of none is frustrating.

My initial thought was 'wow, that is a lot of AA'. Has to be pretty much the harshest environment to fly a thunderbolt in!

Leaving aside the weapons and stuff, the list does look a bit all over the place. The wraitlords don't really fit, Titans aren't big wraithlords after all. Just looks like an excuse to assault out of a phantom. The Rangers look a bit like having cake and eating it. Not entirely sure why the Guardian formation is non standard? Standard Guardians with option for waveserpents would surely be fine? Unless it is all about no farseer, but that still doesn't explain the odd weapon platform or the numbers.

My intial thought would be for a Warlock with no weapons and 7 revenants with twin sonic cannon. Calming down I would still like an 850 warlock, 6 revenants, the gate of vaul and an upgrade for 50 points.

But with all that AA airpower might be pretty effective as enemy interceptors can't do much, especially if the phoenix bombers come down in price to match other lists.

But all those revenants probably aren't what you are aiming for. Might I suggest putting a 1+ next to the phantom? That way you would get a phantom and warlock as a standard baseline and reduce revenant spam, effective or otherwise.

I agree with TRC on avoiding revenant spam. Why not use the same list structure as the AMTL list and allow 2 scout titan choices (1-2 revenants) for each battle titan (phantom and warlock) choice?

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Just because a formation can be "spammed" is not a reason to change it. Spam is for assholes - whom I do encounter as I do not, apparently with great fortune, do not encounter. Revenants are fun as is and , gee whiz, this is a game.

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Well, that may be true. But when a list becomes approved and used in tournaments peoples will to win (vinnarskalle we call it in Sweden) can make them spammy (?) isn't it better to then then put in some kind of restriction to prevent that assholeness (i'm making up alot of words here!) from flourishing?

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Congo must be a great place to be a gamer!

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Winning with a list that can't be beaten is no win at all. That kind of behavior is for children. I'd rather change the people I game with, who are, in fact, adults and do not succumb to BS spam lists, than nerf a perfectly good, fun list. If "tournament" players do not play this way, well, then that is a good reason not to play in tournaments.

And Congo is, in fact, a good place for a great many things (going to baseball games not being one of them, unfortunately)

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