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Drone Drops

 Post subject: Drone Drops
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 2:14 pm 
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I'm not sure if you guys are picking up on this, but AP Disrupt weapons lay extra BMs on AV/WE targets, too.

Disrupt weapons cause BMs on a successful hit.  That means even if they cannot be allocated (in this case because it's AP firing at AVs), they still scored "hits" and therefore still cause BMs.  It's basically the same as a formation taking BMs for coming under fire even if the weapons can't harm the target.

4xAP3+, Disrupt will average 3 2/3 BMs on any target formation, regardless of composition.

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 Post subject: Drone Drops
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 5:59 pm 
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NH,

Whoa, whoa, whoa... With all due respect - I think you have this one incorrect Sir!! I'll do my best to explain...

First, I realize that FAQ says one can come under fire from a formation that cannot hurt it and receive blast markers. However, that is not the same as a formation receiving a blast marker for each hit inflicted - as disrupt states.

I'd refer you to 1.9.5 "Roll to hit" and 1.9.6 " Allocate Hits & Make Savings Throws".

In 1.9.5 it states you must pick between AP and AT weapons to fire or roll to hit with.

In 1.9.6 it states you must now "Allocate" hits to units in the target formation. Furthermore, it states you may ONLY allocate AP hits to AP targets and you may ONLY allocate AT hits to AT targets. Note this step is done before you roll for saves...

Disrupt in section 2.2.2 states... and I quote...
"Certain weapons are designed to disrupt enemy formations as much as kill enemy troops. To represent this weapons noted as having the disrupt ability inflict a Blast marker on an enemy formation for each hit they inflict instead of for each kill they inflict. Note that the hits inflicted by disrupt weapons are save for normally. Any units that fail their save are removed as casualities but do not cause a second Blast marker to be placed on the target foramtion."

Since this Disrupt states you must "inflict" a hit on the target formation not just roll as successful 'to hit' with your weapon, it implies that a hit must be allocated to a unit in the target formation, not just pull the trigger on your gun! Furthermore, it clearly states "inflicted hits are saved for normally" It does NOT say that you must allocate inflicted hits normally. Instead, this assumes that you've already allocated and states that saves are taken normally - even though these are "disrupt" hits that were "inflicted" on the target formation.

In no way can I find anything that supports unallocated rolls to hit with AP weapons that can't be allocated to a target formation with AT only units counting as "inflicted hits."

"Inflicted" is synonomous with allocated"

"inflicted" is NOT synonomous with rolled to hit but couldn't allocate.

This does help explain to me why you feel the tigershark and disrupt with heavy drones are of of more value than those actual Tau players that have responded.

Hopefully my response does not come across as stand-off-ish... that's not my intention. I'm simply trying to outline my perspective and understanding the rules that appear to disagree with your interpretation.

Anyway, I'll be interested in your response,  :)

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 Post subject: Drone Drops
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 8:48 pm 
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Hmmm...

It comes down to whether "inflicted a hit" is supposed to refer to "scored a hit" or "allocated a hit."  I understand why you think that it has to be allocated, but I think that's not correct.

1.9.5, with relevant stuff bolded, is:

1.9.5 Roll To Hit
The player must decide at this stage whether weapons will fire with their AP or AT values if they have both. Then roll a D6 for each shot being directed at the target formation. You must roll equal to or higher  than the appropriate ?to hit? value to score a hit (eg, if the weapon has an AT 4+ , you  must roll a 4 or more to hit). The dice roll is modified for the following reasons. However a roll of 1 before modification is always counted as a miss.


That is the only text that deals with whether or not you generate a hit in shooting.  The rule for generating a hit in assault is phrased similarly.  The allocation text in 1.9.6 speaks only of hits as already existing, never as if the allocation as inflicting or creating hits.  There is no text in either 1.9 or 1.12 (assaults) that refers to allocation of a hit as inflicting, creating, scoring, or generating the hit.  Nor do the WE or aircraft sections use such a convention.  In all cases, the "hit" is scored if the die roll is successful.

I think it's a pretty hard sell to try to claim that "inflicting a hit" means allocation when nothing approaches that in the text.  You made a valid grammatical point with the "it says save, not allocate" part, but every rule that deals directly with hits or allocation says differently.  I think this can safely be chalked up to a simple writing/editorial mistake, much like the WE critical hit language refers to rolling for possible critical for each "hit" rather than each point of damage.

Perhaps just as importantly, the parallel mechanics are all quite clear that causing damage or "kills" to the unit is not a prerequisite for inflicting BMs.  The BM for coming under fire does not require inflicting damage.  Disrupt does not require inflicting damage.  Barrage bonus BMs do not require inflicting damage.  The only bonus-BM rule that requires the ability to inflict damage is Crossfire, and in that case it is stated explicitly that damage is required.

It would seem that in addition to the preponderance of the text supporting die roll = hit, the spirit of the rule is that it would inflict a BM regardless of ability to damage.

===

And yes, I agree this can make a major difference in the effective AT ability of the Tau.

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 Post subject: Drone Drops
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 9:27 pm 
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Your point is quite disturbing indeed. Then I took a dull example to demonstrate it cannot be that:

Dull example:

9 stealth suits (9xAP3+ disrupt) open fire at an IG Tank company consisting of 10 Lru and 2 ogryns (no chimeras in this example).

- Place 1BM for shot at
- Roll to hit using the AP value --> You score a grand total of 9 hits (quite lucky huh? ?:cool: ). So 9BM
- IG player rolls to save an the two ogryns die easily
- 10 BM inflicted, 10 LRu --> LRu are broken

Now where are we? Well, that stupid example finally led me to the conclusion that Neal's point is valid:why would this happen if you overkill 2 ogryn and not happen if they are not even there? ???


Maybe check with Jervis if this is expected tough, or at least affordable... or if this should be considered a bug like the shame assault tactic and eliminated.






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 Post subject: Drone Drops
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 9:49 pm 
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This would have some serious ramifications if it were the case.

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 Post subject: Drone Drops
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 10:37 pm 
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I've emailed Jervis and the ERC committee.  I gave a brief description and referred them here for details.

Here's the FAQ I propose:

Q:  Can an AP-only weapon with Disrupt ability place Blast Markers on Armored Vehicles even though they cannot actually harm the target.

a)       Yes.  The Disrupt ability only requires that the weapon hit the target formation.  Just as with the BM for coming under fire, it does not require that the weapon firing be able to harm the target.

b)       No.  The Disrupt ability requires that the firing weapon is capable of damaging the target.

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 Post subject: Drone Drops
PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 8:51 pm 
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NH - have you heard anything on this?

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