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Tau Vior'la v2.0

 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:15 pm 
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As a BP alternative to the Supremacy, you could do 4x (something like that) at AP4/AT5+. I did the same thing for the flamer on the land train, as using BP instead would have meant it lost some special abilities on the barrage (due to BP combining rules).

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:24 pm 
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I am one of the no BP in epic Tau. It’s the way it is. 4x whatever sounds good. Especially if that target was markered up.

Paying a premium sure, but 50 points is loss of an upgrade somewhere else. Not so painful. Tau almost always require an activation edge. The premium should be activation limiting. Not so far as to cost you an activation for it, but to restrict the number of activations in the end.

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:47 am 
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I put up a poll and a thread specifically for discussion on the multidriver. We can pick up the conversation there.

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:09 pm 
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So I just had a stonkingly fun 2000 points game against Blip's Ulthwe- the best kind of game, a close one that you still win :P I took a very suit heavy list and had a blast. The list felt very different from Third Phase Tau, but still very discernably Tau. Will get a proper BatRep typed up with photos shortly I hope!

For now, the list I took was:

Pathfinders- 4x Pathfinders, 2x Devilfish, 3x Tetra- 275
Crisis Cadre- 6x XV8, Shas'El- 325
Crisis Cadre- 6x XV8, Shas'El- 325
Heavy Battlesuits- 3x Riptides, Shas'El- 350
Stormsurges- 250
Supremacy (POMD)- 275
Razorsharks- 200

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:40 pm 
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Resa F wrote:
So I just had a stonkingly fun 2000 points game against Blip's Ulthwe- the best kind of game, a close one that you still win :P I took a very suit heavy list and had a blast. The list felt very different from Third Phase Tau, but still very discernably Tau. Will get a proper BatRep typed up with photos shortly I hope!

For now, the list I took was:

Pathfinders- 4x Pathfinders, 2x Devilfish, 3x Tetra- 275
Crisis Cadre- 6x XV8, Shas'El- 325
Crisis Cadre- 6x XV8, Shas'El- 325
Heavy Battlesuits- 3x Riptides, Shas'El- 350
Stormsurges- 250
Supremacy (POMD)- 275
Razorsharks- 200
Excellent Resa! I'm glad you enjoyed it so much. I'm looking forward for hearing your thoughts on the list, seeing how it played, and your thoughts on the MD.

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:59 pm 
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gunslinger007 wrote:
At the risk of sounding like a broken record, at this point I'd like to see in game play before making more adjustments. If people have an idea they'd like to put forward or an OP issue to raise, I'd encourage them to test it. I won't demand a full photo, step by step, bat rep at this point, but even a copy of both lists with a short narrative of thoughts, impressions, and performance would be helpful.


Seems fair. While there are things to discuss you do not want the list to remain static and die. reports are a necessity for that.

I cannot promise one in the next month or two as i have battle reports on queue already, and a broken pc, but later, yeah.

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:49 pm 
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@Abetillo Thanks! I appreciate your willingness to help. I know everyone's gaming time is valuable, and I'm glad you're willing to use some of it for play testing.

I got lucky this month and got a couple games in I need to get around to posting about.

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:52 pm 
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got a game last night, managed a win against titans, the thing that stuck out most to me was how much weaker the riptides are now with their secondary weapons having a double nerf in both range and hitting power, I struggled to get much out of them firepower-wise for most of the game, the R'varna suits were a far better option as their extra range helps mitigate their lower speed somewhat, often having to double to get the secondary weapons of the riptide in range meant their hit rolls were even lower

I personally never felt the riptides were overpowered with the macro shot and 2xAP4/AT5 shots, with the stats as they are now, they're not really worth the points over the R'varna formation IMO

But on the other hand, I did win the game..... just wish the iconic riptides had played more of a part rather than as glorified objective grabbers....

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:07 pm 
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Thanks for the report and your impressions Kyuss! Congratulations on the victory, I bet Dave won't let the xv107s sustain on him in the future.

I completely agree the riptides cant press on people as aggressively as they used to. I also thought that when I brought them out a few weeks ago.

One of my concerns with Riptides was having them be an easy choice having three shots at 45cm and an AA shot. In my head, I envisioned the riptide being a jack of all trades, compared to the tougher and longer ranged xv107 and the shorter ranged xv109. The AA shot definitely played into that idea, and the MW helped keep it from being obsolete.

I noticed the AT list didnt have any flyers. Could that have influenced the effectiveness? I know a 6+ is nothing to brag about, but spread around in different formations can still keep flyers off by volume of BMs.

From a tactics stand point, I find it interesting that you were doubling to allow shots from the plasma rifles. Personally, in my games I've sacrificed the shots and just fired with the iron accelerator to get the best chance to hit with MW. Not that either is right or wrong, just funny to see how differently people approach using the units. If anything it underlines why we playtest!

Maybe we can look at bringing the plasma rifles up to missile pods. That'd stretch the shot to 45cm and we could go 2 shots at 5/6 or twin link it for one at 4/5. If the Riptide gets three reliable shots at 45cm, I'm concerned it might blur the heavy suits' roles and make the 107 obsolete, except has a tanky bts. But we're even looking at scaling that back a bit to 5++/+.

From your standpoint, what role do you see Riptides in, and how would that contrast to the xv107?

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 1:55 am 
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The main reason I wasn't sacrificing the plasma shots in this game was really because of all the shields.... I wanted to get shots off to strip shields rather than waste the macro shots, the range wouldn't be too much of an issue if the shots were a little punchier, AP5/AT5 might have been a better choice, I just didn't fancy my chances hitting on 7's....good point about the lack of flyers, rare that you don't come up against them

Next game I'm going to try the R'Varna out at a regular invulnerable save too

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:55 am 
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I finally have written up the promised BatRep; I hope it's useful!

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:51 pm 
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I have a couple of suggestions.

Firstly, my 2 cents on the Hammerhead debate. Why would Skyrays be allowed but Hammerheads removed from the list. I very much doubt it would affect the list in any significant way if Hammerheads were allowed as an upgrade to a Firewarrior Breacher cadre (If it's a range thing, restrict it to the 30cm fusionHead).
It just feels wrong to say "Vior'la doesn't use skimmer tanks" and then use the skyray as a crutch to get AA into the list).

With all the new Tau wargear included in the list. But where is the Tidewall?I haven't read the 40k Vior'la book in a while. But as I remember it, hammer and anvil was a tactic distinct for Vior'la. Where the Tidewall represented the Anvil.
I suggest a War Engine with transport(8) as an upgrade for Firewarriors (Bonded Teams, Fireblade, Shas’O, Ethereal upgrades allowed no other) . Give it a prohibitive slow movement of 5cm, maybe allow it to garrison? limited to 2 per army. Firefight attacks based on transported units instead of DC. Every DC lost it loses 1 transport. A single long range attack from it's Tower, A rail gun? 5+ Reinforced armour, Tau deflector shield, DC8, Skimmer, Transport(DC). CC6+, FF4+.
Simply an anchor to the line for the enemy to push through to get to the objectives, but with no real firepower of it's own.

That would definitely make the list unique.


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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 12:02 pm 
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Had some time on my hands so I made a 3D model of how I envision the Tidewall would look in a game.
Attachment:
Tidewall_All v2.png
Tidewall_All v2.png [ 536.56 KiB | Viewed 1042 times ]

Each "wall section" is large enough to hold one rectangular Epic base. The circular "nodes" has an inner diameter of 25mm the size of a vanguard circular base. Each leg of the triangle is 10cm long (edge to edge).

I haven't done the underside yet. Which would bulk it out a great deal and lift it off the ground to emphasize that it's a skimmer.


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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:29 pm 
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Shoel wrote:
I have a couple of suggestions.

Firstly, my 2 cents on the Hammerhead debate. Why would Skyrays be allowed but Hammerheads removed from the list. I very much doubt it would affect the list in any significant way if Hammerheads were allowed as an upgrade to a Firewarrior Breacher cadre (If it's a range thing, restrict it to the 30cm fusionHead).
It just feels wrong to say "Vior'la doesn't use skimmer tanks" and then use the skyray as a crutch to get AA into the list).

With all the new Tau wargear included in the list. But where is the Tidewall?I haven't read the 40k Vior'la book in a while. But as I remember it, hammer and anvil was a tactic distinct for Vior'la. Where the Tidewall represented the Anvil.
I suggest a War Engine with transport(8) as an upgrade for Firewarriors (Bonded Teams, Fireblade, Shas’O, Ethereal upgrades allowed no other) . Give it a prohibitive slow movement of 5cm, maybe allow it to garrison? limited to 2 per army. Firefight attacks based on transported units instead of DC. Every DC lost it loses 1 transport. A single long range attack from it's Tower, A rail gun? 5+ Reinforced armour, Tau deflector shield, DC8, Skimmer, Transport(DC). CC6+, FF4+.
Simply an anchor to the line for the enemy to push through to get to the objectives, but with no real firepower of it's own.

That would definitely make the list unique.
Thanks for your interest!

The removal of the skimmer tanks are to try and provide the list with a different feel, stepping away from agile skimmer gun line towards formations that can push the midline more. As with a lot of these different flavor lists, we try to take things out as others are added to keep lists more streamlined. That's a big part of the reason why hammerheads have been pulled.

The Tidewall is a really interesting idea. At the current point, I'd like to see if we can push the list forward with the current structure. We've gotten some feedback and playtesting and some overall momentum I don't want to derail with introducing a brand new unit that is going to require significant testing and discussion. Additionally, while I agree it will help the list have a unique playstyle to 3rd sphere, it's not necessary to that end with the suits and shorter ranges.

I think the idea for the Tidewall is extremely cool, but that it might be better served to playtest its stats outside of the Vior'la development and we can discuss its introduction in the future after Vior'la approval.

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:26 am 
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I don't actually mind the removing of the skimmer tanks. Just that the Skyrays were left when no others were. Either leave them all (but not as standalone formations, more as infantry support) or remove them all. We have fighters and AA on Suits, the list could work without skyrays.

I always walk in to the "we don't want to change too much as we are looking to get the approved status" argument.
I always forget that the lists are written in a spirit of competitive games whereas I'm a casual gamer. I just like to think about these things and throw out the ideas. I'm also colored by the fact that I liked the list building of Epic40k. It felt like it built more realistic combined arms detachments. Where as most Formations in EA feels more like an army TOE (parade ground formations). A little of topic, but alla I wan't to say is The Idea has been planted do with it what you want ;D


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