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Tau Vior'la v2.0

 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:57 am 
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gunslinger007 wrote:
I'm interested specifically to hear people's thoughts on the R'varna suit and the Ghostkeel.



I run the ghostkeels in twins all the time. The is never a time where I would not take them as an upgrade. They make the stealth detachment scarier to people. The ghost keel opens up the detachment to AT which sucks some.

I wouldn't change them

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:06 pm 
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m_folais wrote:
I run the ghostkeels in twins all the time. The is never a time where I would not take them as an upgrade. They make the stealth detachment scarier to people. The ghost keel opens up the detachment to AT which sucks some.

I wouldn't change them


What do you think of their durability? In my game against captpiett, they shrugged off quite a bit of fire for a 25pt upgrade to a stealth suit with their 4++6+. I think the dice spiked during the game, but I wanted to see if others had similar impressions.

Same for the R'varna with a 4++5+. I ran three with a riptide as my BTS. I lost some DC, but didnt lose a stand over two games. Dave played marines and they had an especially hard time with the formation, relying on BMs to try and break them.

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:58 pm 
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gunslinger007 wrote:
Razorshark AA tweaked so that TWC match the Barracuda w/ AA6+. Moved the QIT to AA5+ but kept it FA to prevent a power imbalance.
Seems a bit odd having the quad turret, mounted at the back of the aircraft, restricted to a forward firing arc. The model could reasonably have the Burst Cannons on a Forward Arc. Would that be enough for balance? It would be nice to celebrate the quirky (OK, crazy) aerodynamic layout of the GW offering.

gunslinger007 wrote:
I'm interested specifically to hear people's thoughts on the R'varna suit and the Ghostkeel.
Do you need need to have the Invulnerable Save on the Ghostkeel as well? I do realise that it simulates the suit being harder to hit (with heavy weapons) with all that stealth technology. But the Stealth Suits themselves just get RA5+.

Do the R'varna Suits deserve the FF 4+ given they are a longer range support rig? That might be one way to tone them down if that is required. In the past the main vulnerability of my heavy suits has been their lack of Fearless.
Broken by volume of fire and then killed off with blast markers. My experience has also been that the armour resilience becomes more formidable as the numbers of Heavy Suits on the table goes up.

Warhammer 40,000 Wiki wrote:
When it comes to deflecting and withstanding damage, the XV107's armour is comparable to the Tactical Dreadnought Armour used by the Imperium's Terminator Space Marines.
So I guess the 4++5+ armour is already a little stronger. But the same could be said about the standard Riptide armour at 3+5+ (2 out of 9 hits go through, compared to 2 out of 8 hits for RA 4+ standard terminators, but the Chaplains get 4++6+, so, . . . ok). Remembering about the Terminator Characters makes me think the R'varna armour, as is, might be ok.

The R'varna is rather resilient against TK weaponry compared to a typical WE, if you ignore the shields and Fearless. Does seem a little odd having the Manta with thicker, but similar, armour (in the fluff) being more vulnerable to fire on the NetEA battlefield. Manta 5++5+. The advantages of Fearless on the Manta is pretty much balanced out by always being in LOF due to being a Support Craft.

Think I am just descending into specific instance of the issues around the coarse granularity of the RA rule. So I will stop. Four R'varna Suits as a BTS formation is very attractive.


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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:46 pm 
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What about dropping the deflector field from the xv107 and xv109 suits down to a regular invulnerable save? It seems the riptides get a special supercharged riptide-shield, it would make the xv107 more resilient than the riptide in most cases but would be an easier sell to the opponent than a 5+ save after the reinforced save?

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:28 pm 
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gunslinger007 wrote:
m_folais wrote:
I run the ghostkeels in twins all the time. The is never a time where I would not take them as an upgrade. They make the stealth detachment scarier to people. The ghost keel opens up the detachment to AT which sucks some. I wouldn't change them


What do you think of their durability? In my game against captpiett, they shrugged off quite a bit of fire for a 25pt upgrade to a stealth suit with their 4++6+. I think the dice spiked during the game, but I wanted to see if others had similar impressions.
Same for the R'varna with a 4++5+. I ran three with a riptide as my BTS. I lost some DC, but didnt lose a stand over two games. Dave played marines and they had an especially hard time with the formation, relying on BMs to try and break them.

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The toughness you gain and -1 off cover (INF against AV) is offset by the exposure to AT fire. The addition of AV also changes the detachments available targets. (tellie in near an AT only unit for the engage with little worries. the risk increases with Ghostkeels) The detachment easily takes 50% more shots. Normally it will take 2 activations to remove the threat of just stealth suits. Its the same number of activations to cut down the upgraded ghostkeel detachment. Mine are always taking 2 blast markers when they tellie in. This last game was a first, my stealth landed without a single BM!

I am no math wizard and I am sure someone will take my to school with their higher education book learning. In practical on table experience the detachment is dealt with in the same fashion.

You could increase the price of the upgrade. But how would an extra point cost effect the army? Where would those points come from? The cost of an upgrade limits over all choices, activation count, and threat projection. What other upgrade would you be force to choose between? Is the ghostkeel upgrade worth an activation? Or is only worth another upgrade?

It would have to be doubled, 150 point to upgrade, to cut an activation. The 75 points only decrease the threat/staying power of another detachment. On the weak side your taking away FWs, PFs, Gun drones. On the strong side a sky ray. If you doubled the cost you would make the choice difficult or cause ghostkeels to be shelved.

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:37 am 
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@Andrew Part of the challenge is keeping the burst cannon in line with the Baracuda. I brought a formation this weekend. They did a great job at CAPing, taking out an Orca loaded with six crisis suits and putting hurt on thunderbolts. I spaced and forgot to use them against air assaulting marines in a thawk, but that's my own fault and I like their odds delivering 3x4+ and 3x5+ if I'd remembered

I like the idea of dropping the INV save for the Ghostkeels. I think that could balance the a bit more. However, I'd like to see some more testing at the current stats. It could have just been they spiked this game!

The 5+ FF is an interesting idea given the long range. I talked with Captpiett and part of my concern isn't just their point balance, but how fun they are to play against. Even lowering their damage still leaves them a potentially frustrating target to kill. 100% agree about the approach of breaking them, and BMing them to death. In my game with Dave, I had three or four activations I needed to Marshall to make sure they didn't break. It really slowed my progress.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, at this point I'd like to see in game play before making more adjustments. If people have an idea they'd like to put forward or an OP issue to raise, I'd encourage them to test it. I won't demand a full photo, step by step, bat rep at this point, but even a copy of both lists with a short narrative of thoughts, impressions, and performance would be helpful.

@Kyuss That's interesting for the R'varna. Wouldn't mind if some people tested it out. Dave and I were discussing a possible 5+++ , but I'd be open to discussing a 4++6+ and letting riptides to keep that special 5+.

@liddic The Ghostkeels have revamped the stealth formation for me. Typically they're a big underperformer, but I do really enjoy adding the two AV units. As mentioned above, I think dropping the INV and keeping a strong 4++ may be the way to go. We can see what other's games show.

Thanks for the continued interest everyone.

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:59 am 
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That's quite a nerfing.

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:41 am 
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Wanted to check.

"Vior'la Upgrades: Four may be taken per formation"
Given some earlier talk about multiple Tetra upgrades, does this mean you could
take four of one upgrade. So for example add 8 Gun Drones (4 of 2 @25 points each).
Or perhaps an extra four Heavy Suits (true plus 400 points, but potent).
Maybe increasing Crisis Suit formation numbers by eight?

Also wanted to check what you meant by Heavy Suits counting at 4 units in the
transport capacity of a Manta? Four vehicle slots in the Manta so it can carry one
Heavy Suit (ie not any actual formation)? Or no infantry (5 x 4 slots) and no other
vehicles (1 x 4 slots) so a potential load of 6 Heavy Suits, with no other units being
transported.


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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:54 pm 
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Parintachin wrote:
That's quite a nerfing.
Hi! What specifically were you referencing? There's a lot of different issues being discussed.

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:15 pm 
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Andrew_NZ wrote:
Wanted to check.

"Vior'la Upgrades: Four may be taken per formation"
Given some earlier talk about multiple Tetra upgrades, does this mean you could
take four of one upgrade. So for example add 8 Gun Drones (4 of 2 @25 points each).
Or perhaps an extra four Heavy Suits (true plus 400 points, but potent).
Maybe increasing Crisis Suit formation numbers by eight?

Also wanted to check what you meant by Heavy Suits counting at 4 units in the
transport capacity of a Manta? Four vehicle slots in the Manta so it can carry one
Heavy Suit (ie not any actual formation)? Or no infantry (5 x 4 slots) and no other
vehicles (1 x 4 slots) so a potential load of 6 Heavy Suits, with no other units being
transported.
Good point, I need to clarify the upgrade language on the pdf. It should be 4 different upgrades, but only a specific upgrade one. So the language of the recon formation should specify that it is a 0-4 upgrade, at 25 per unit.

The downstream effect of this is crisis suits capped at 8 strong and heavies at 4, which is more of the intent.

For the Manta, the intent was for the Heavies to take up four infantry spots, or four vehicle spots. So there's a capacity to carry up to 6 heavies in the Manta.

I thought about making them take up three slots and also five sets. But doubling the size of a crisis suit slot from 2 to 4 seemed more accurate for a heavy. I have concerns about planet falling Mantas with multiple formations of heavy suits disembarking and coordinating fire, but I suppose if someone is aiming to sink 1400 points into a first turn activation, they want some results for half their force activating.

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:42 pm 
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gunslinger007 wrote:
@liddic The Ghostkeels have revamped the stealth formation for me. Typically they're a big underperformer, but I do really enjoy adding the two AV units. As mentioned above, I think dropping the INV and keeping a strong 4++ may be the way to go. We can see what other's games show.
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I actual own the models. I would hate to leave them in the foam. Imperial knights are tough as shit to remove with their multiple saves also. I see where the crying of cheese moe larry cheese is coming from. Its limited and not army wide. I would leave it.

I always max out with three and expect to lose them. They come in first turn. Their purpose is not to steal the show. They force the opponent to change the battle plan. The shift the focus of turn one. Two activation can suck up 4 enemy activations of a 12 activation list. I will take that 33% any day for 600 points. (450 with no ghostkeels) If it works out great. If not well, the attention was off the important elements.

That is why a point increase would shelf the ghostkeel. The upgrade would cost your list an activation. The 20% for 33% would no longer be tactically viable.

I have no problem play testing the loss of the Tau deflector shields. They would still achieve their purpose.

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:27 pm 
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m_folais wrote:
Imperial knights are tough as shit to remove with their multiple saves also.


We talked about that. Aside from the heavier armored Wardens classes knights take damage quicker:

3/6 * 2/3 => 3 regular hits = 1 DC
3/6 => 2 MW/Lance hits = 1 DC
3/6 => 2 TK hits = 1 DC

A 4+RA with Deflector shield unit looks like:
3/6 * 3/6 * 2/3 => 6 regular hits = kill
3/6 * 2/3 => 3 MW/Lance hits = kill
2/3 => 1.5 MW/Lance hits = kill

The Tau are making out better there, slightly. However, they don't have to worry about crossfire either. Knights do, and it tanks their survivability:

5/6 * 5/6 => 1.44 regular crossfire hits = 1DC
5/6 => 1.2 WM/Lance crossfire hits = 1DC
1 TK crossfire hit = 1DC

On top of that, the Tau have a better SR and initiative as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:41 pm 
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Dave wrote:
m_folais wrote:
Imperial knights are tough as shit to remove with their multiple saves also.


We talked about that. Aside from the heavier armored Wardens classes knights take damage quicker:

3/6 * 2/3 => 3 regular hits = 1 DC
3/6 => 2 MW/Lance hits = 1 DC
3/6 => 2 TK hits = 1 DC

A 4+RA with Deflector shield unit looks like:
3/6 * 3/6 * 2/3 => 6 regular hits = kill
3/6 * 2/3 => 3 MW/Lance hits = kill
2/3 => 1.5 MW/Lance hits = kill

The Tau are making out better there, slightly. However, they don't have to worry about crossfire either. Knights do, and it tanks their survivability:

5/6 * 5/6 => 1.44 regular crossfire hits = 1DC
5/6 => 1.2 WM/Lance crossfire hits = 1DC
1 TK crossfire hit = 1DC

On top of that, the Tau have a better SR and initiative as well.


I trust your math. But those knights never die! Just like the riptides at AdeptiCon smashed people so bad, I shelved the list as broken. The big suits don’t die.

As far as the ghostkeel suits you, Eric, brad, Karl, and Kal faced them last time they saw a tourney. We should poll those dudes for opinions

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 1:32 pm 
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I really like that this list keeps going, so great job and thank you so much, gunslinger007.

About the list, something I have never seen being discussed is R'varnas having three saving rolls.
When I play with my friends, I dont feel like they appreciate some of my suites having a third saving roll after I miss my reinforced 4+ rolls. I dont even think they are too good, but I have never seen three saving rolls in anything other than characters that already have reinforced armor. But still that's only 6+ invulnerable.

Is this intentional or am I playing it wrong? Like for example not being able to reroll both armor saves and then invulnerable.


About Supremacy suits, I really like them being able to pick from three weapons, but the artillery option is worse than the others for a higher price.
I can see the TK option being good and having a niche, as it's the only long range TK weapon in the list (other than the Manta and the Spaceship, of course).
The MW guided misiles option seems to be the best one by far.

I can see why the BP version is more expensive, as you don't want to encourage using long range non-marked weapons on Tau, as that's unfluffy.
If you fire it at 120 cm, you hit 2-3 units, 4 at most.
At 4+/5+ with no disrupt, no ignore cover.

If you want bigger numbers, you need it to be at 90 cm range and fire marked enemies, and in that point with the guided MW option you get 3xMW3+ and 2xAT4+, while the more expensive aoe version gets 2-4xAP3+/AT4+ and 2xAT4+.

I can see that it's supposed to be a guy that gets to shoot before your markerlights are there, aand it's supposed to cost a lot so it's not spammed, but for a 275 points WE with no fearless and easy to break, that's a very disappointing shoot, I wouldn't take it over the guided MW one.
Maybe make it disruption, or 4BP, or even ignore cover. Maybe give it one of those and make it only able to fire at marked enemies? That way you have a long range artillery that still needs markerlights support.

Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:25 pm 
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CarlixTomix wrote:
I really like that this list keeps going, so great job and thank you so much, gunslinger007.

About the list, something I have never seen being discussed is R'varnas having three saving rolls.
When I play with my friends, I dont feel like they appreciate some of my suites having a third saving roll after I miss my reinforced 4+ rolls. I dont even think they are too good, but I have never seen three saving rolls in anything other than characters that already have reinforced armor. But still that's only 6+ invulnerable.

Is this intentional or am I playing it wrong? Like for example not being able to reroll both armor saves and then invulnerable.


About Supremacy suits, I really like them being able to pick from three weapons, but the artillery option is worse than the others for a higher price.
I can see the TK option being good and having a niche, as it's the only long range TK weapon in the list (other than the Manta and the Spaceship, of course).
The MW guided misiles option seems to be the best one by far.

I can see why the BP version is more expensive, as you don't want to encourage using long range non-marked weapons on Tau, as that's unfluffy.
If you fire it at 120 cm, you hit 2-3 units, 4 at most.
At 4+/5+ with no disrupt, no ignore cover.

If you want bigger numbers, you need it to be at 90 cm range and fire marked enemies, and in that point with the guided MW option you get 3xMW3+ and 2xAT4+, while the more expensive aoe version gets 2-4xAP3+/AT4+ and 2xAT4+.

I can see that it's supposed to be a guy that gets to shoot before your markerlights are there, aand it's supposed to cost a lot so it's not spammed, but for a 275 points WE with no fearless and easy to break, that's a very disappointing shoot, I wouldn't take it over the guided MW one.
Maybe make it disruption, or 4BP, or even ignore cover. Maybe give it one of those and make it only able to fire at marked enemies? That way you have a long range artillery that still needs markerlights support.

Thanks.
Thanks for the encouragement! I'm glad that you like the direction of the list and that you're getting in games with it!

Regarding the R'varnas, I think you hit the nail on the head. There's been concerns that they might just be too tough to be fun to lay against as they stand. We're looking into an adjustment to a 5+++ save or 4++6+. The good news is that it does sound like you're playing them the right way!

The Supremacy's barrage has been a tough one. The 40k stats grant the ability, however, as an issue of play style and limitation, there are epic players who want to keep barrage out of the Tau lists. The point increase to meant to reflect this nearly unique ability access. I think it's also important to keep in mind that the I direct barrage will frequently be used on sustain action. That drops the hitting to a 3+/4+ before modifiers. It also provides the list with some much desired reach. Personally, I've had decent success with sustaining with the upgrade, especially against light vehicles when available. The 50 pts upgrade feels a little hefty, but from a design stand point, I think it could be right. I agree that it's not ideal or perfect, but it keeps the option from being an auto include in the list. We can see other's impressions and what they say on the points for the Driver.

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