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Tau Vior'la v2.0

 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:55 pm 
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m_folais wrote:
Yvarhra suits FF is too low, 5. Crisis suits are a 4 and the Yvarhra packs more hate at 15.

gunslinger007 wrote:
regarding the Yvarha, I agree the can be strong. I know you've said a bunch you think they're too keyed up. Do you have any suggestion on adjustments?

The current stats for the Y'varha would see me never taking them in a halfway competitive list. The other two variants have 4 shooting options, significantly longer range and higher FF. OK, the Y'varha has a very potent main weapon (but 15 cm range, and almost no AP firepower). Given what it is doing, very up close and personal, what about FF 4+, and an extra FF attack due to the Plasma Flamer. That might bring it back somewhat towards par with the other suits. Think the other suits would still suit [sic] my play style better though.

Although a little light on activations, compared to my typical Tau operations, the following seems a fun day out.

350 FW Cadre, Shas'o, 5 Fire Warriors, 2 Pathfinders
225 Pathfinder Group, 6 Pathfinders, 2 Gun Drones
225 Pathfinder Group, 6 Pathfinders, 2 Gun Drones

450 4 XV107 R'Varna Suits, Shas'el
350 3 Riptide Suits, Shas'el
350 3 Riptide Suits, Shas'el

350 3 Riptide Suits, Shas'el
350 3 Riptide Suits, Shas'el
350 3 Riptide Suits, Shas'el


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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:01 pm 
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kyussinchains wrote:
I think that broadly you could use whatever models and units you like from both this and the 3rd sphere list and it would play okay and be roughly balanced, I suggest that unless you are a hardcore tournament player you consider doing just that with your opponents, you could also consider using the old version written by Matt shadowlord if you like it, it's still available if you and your opponents want to continue using it, it's also still archived on armyforge, so you could easily fork it off into your own branch and have an army builder for it too :)

The remit of NetEA list development is to create tournament ready lists with variant playstyles and units, not to shoehorn everything into one list, I am sorry you dislike the direction the Vior'la is going in, but I am also absolutely sure that if you suggest good ideas for the list, that Gunslinger007 will take them into consideration because he's committed to an open and inclusive development process

For my money the original Vior'la list should not have started off at Developmental stage because frankly it wasn't developmental and it meant a lot of people felt secure in building a collection around it when they shouldn't have

The 3rd sphere list isn't that lacklustre it just doesn't have the battlesuits (which a friendly opponent would probably have zero issue with you using), and with the manta about to get a shot in the arm, should be a perfect home for your recent acquisitions :)


Well, I don't - respectfully - see where I said I wanted everything shoehorned in. I reacted to stuff being taken out.

Also when I said the 3rd Sphere list was lackluster it was mainly due to it being sub-par to most lists balance-wise and not very competitive at all.

gunslinger007 wrote:
@Draccan
- I'm glad you're so interested in the Tau in general, especially the Vior'la as we work on them. I'm not sure Mantas will make the Vior'la tournament list, but I think some of the new changes for the Manta will make it more desirable for the Third Sphere list. And of course, feel free to sample from both for casual play!
- I'm sorry some of the adjustments have thrown you off. Unfortunately, as a list still being worked on and refined, changes in stats and build might be necessary. However, it does seem like a crisis formation will be reintroduced along with the possibility of hammerheads as upgrades for fire warriors.
- at the moment, I do think the heavy suits will be staying out of the core. I havent seen fluff indicating the Vior'la sept had especially high rates of heavy suit usage, as opposed to their high usage of fws and Pfs, so I do want to try and have the list reflect that. I don't believe the list should be able to run as all heavy suits.
- since it seems you're a bit discouraged with the list, what are the top three components you'd like to see in a new Vior'la list? I can't promise they'll all make it, but I do want to see what people who are passionate about the list are looking for
- regarding upgrading the 3rd Sphere List, Kyuss beat me to it. NetEA doesn't have habit of going back and upgrading old approved lists with new units GW creates. Rather new lists are created that can incorporate the new units and offer new play styles for the community. You can see it with Marines, "Newcrons", and Tyranids to name a few.

I hope you'll stay interested with this list! While I think calling the 3rd Sphere list lackluster is a bit harsh, I know there is a demand to get a new variety of units on the table and all help is appreciated.


A lot to unpack and comment on. Let me try.

Fluff. I see the word thrown around on TaccComm a lot, but rarely specific references. I have searched in my old codices yesterday and on the Interwebz but not found much about Vior'la at all. Would love to know what sources were used. Call it the academic in me.

List design philosophy: I would love to see a couple of lines in writing about what is being tried with this list.

Mantas. I think the list can survive without the Manta. What I lack is a reason for taking it out. What was the thinking about it? For a supposedly fast moving, heavy-suit strike force I find it puzzling it is taken out. From a gaming perspective it is a great center-piece and in my opinion goes well with the heavy suits. Tau really only has that one thing going for them to have something Reaver/Warlord sized.

Crisis Suits. Good to hear they might find their way back in. Commander Farsight was Vior'la and it would be hard to imagine Crisis suits not to be intrinsic to a suit-heavy list.

General points: I find that with the current edition, that removes crisis suits, mantas, hammerheads etc. that the playstyle for the Vior'la list is going to be really limited and that most lists are going to be very much the same. Talking of shoehorn, I think a limited playstyle might be shoehorned in here.
I understand that the current philosophy of NetEA lists is to put in new stuff and remove other stuff to differentiate, but I think that this is going to far in the other direction.

Top things I would like to see in:
* Personally I think Crisis Suits are the most important for a supposedly mobile strike force. Esp. with the little I know of Vior'la.
* For me the best way to differentiate 3rd Sphere vs. alternate Tau list (currently called Vior'la) would be to change what the core formations are and how it is structured. A fun-factor is to have a bit more units in and only the absolute needed taken out. But differentiating core formations is a great way to not having to remove a lot of units but making the two seem different.

Off topic: This is not really a discussion for here, but I do feel that NetEA would have been better served by having two sets of lists for a faction: The limited, tested, close to original lists for competition and some catch-all big lists that doesn't try too hard to be competitive, just fix what is too broken and include new units as GW creates new ones. I think that in the long run it would be a lot more simple to handle. And require less play-testing.
But this is entirely me and I know that on TaccComm I am in the tiny minority with this.


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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:51 pm 
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Quote:
Also when I said the 3rd Sphere list was lackluster it was mainly due to it being sub-par to most lists balance-wise and not very competitive at all.


A quick look at the EpicUK stats for 3rd sphere Tau (identical to NetEA) have them at 36%-38%-26% Win-Loss-Draw from 134 games, which is pretty much in line with marines, steel legion and orks, and not far off Biel-Tan.... So I disagree with the comment that they are not competitive, and the game data seems to support this

It sure would be easier to have a catch-all looser balanced list and there is really nothing stopping you from doing that, the NetEA lists are intended for tournament and pick-up games so as you rightly point out, they should be more restrictive, but really outside a tournament environment you can pretty much do whatever you like anyway so having a catch-all list isn't really necessary (and seriously the old list was as close to a catch-all list as you're likely to get)

I'd also suggest trying the list for a few games, you might be surprised how flexible it can be.... Andrew_NZ makes lists with it that I hadn't even considered, I'm still trying out new builds with it, it's not as restrictive as you might imagine

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:01 am 
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I will definitely be trying this out at some point. Just infantry and suits is interesting.
I do agree with some other comments however, on the Shas'O and Recon upgrade- mostly from a stylistic point of view. The Shas'O upgrade is a little odd to me. Halfway between a suit and Fire Warriors? And it's intentional he footslogs in a mechanised formation?
Also, it's intentional you could have 2 Devilfish and 4 Tetras as a formation?

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:48 am 
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@Draacan
My understand of the fluff is getting pulled from the most recent codex and 40k lexicanum:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Vior%27la

I wish I had the time to comb all sources myself, but I have to rely on some community documents. There could be parts I miss.

Roughly, the aim of the list is to embrace and balance the Vior'la fluff and allow players to have access to new Tau units. Specifically, a force hinging on Fire Warriors, Pathfinders, and (going forward) Crisis Suits, that replace the hover tank, longer ranged, play style of 3rd Sphere with shorter ranged, more aggressive units and incorporates heavy suits to provide heavier fire power.

Perhaps what I'll work on in the background is a non tournament sanctioned "Sandbox Sept." Same idea as the Kitchen Sink Marine list. It'll function as a interactive compendium of all approved Tau units with their stats and upgrades. It should make putting together free form Tau lists easier. It could be kept up to date as new Tau units are released. The units can be play tested before being approved and rolled out in the Sandbox list. Ultimately, if someone wanted to build a new specialized Sept list, they could use that single document to pull stats from, even if the units aren't in any other list yet. If local TOs want to allow it, they'd be more than welcome to. They delay will be in locking down stats for the new units, and then I'll roll it out.

@Resa F - The Shas'o is still fire warrior infantry under the game rules, so he can jump in a devil fish. The alternative is committing to a full crisis suit upgrade and writing into his stat line the appropriate speed, jet packs, etc.

The recon upgrade isn't "supposed" to allow that, as much as it does by way of support formations having four upgrades. I personally don't think a formation of devil fish and tetras is optimal, but someone could take it if they wanted. A player is specifically not supposed to be able to take a full formation of tetras and recreate the Third Sphere formation. Likewise, the upgrade isn't supposed to allow players to create speedy end game formations. If a player wants, they can diversify their PF formation. Trying to force a maxed tetra formation leads to devil fish that don't have cohesion in the formation. If in play testing it becomes apparent that people are only maxing out the upgrade for speedy LV marker lights, we can revisit if its necessary or appropriate.

The idea doesn't seem to be getting much traction, so if it remains unpopular, we can pull it.

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 1:23 pm 
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gunslinger007 wrote:
Perhaps what I'll work on in the background is a non tournament sanctioned "Sandbox Sept." Same idea as the Kitchen Sink Marine list. It'll function as a interactive compendium of all approved Tau units with their stats and upgrades. It should make putting together free form Tau lists easier.


Image

But jokes aside, that's a WONDERFUL idea. I would love to see more of that across the factions. The #1 complaint from recruitment is 'where's all the XYZs? Oh you mean I can't use them? [slink off back to 40k or other game]' type of conversations. Heck there's one in this thread from an old timer so imagine new potential players? Getting caught up too much in the tournament hype can be detrimental and at best, causes a continual cycle of explanation.

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:27 pm 
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gunslinger007 wrote:
@Borka
- for the Recon upgrades, I don't believe the original 3rd sphere formation can be build. Formations are limited to four upgrades, so the closest you can get is 2 devil fish w 4 tetra or 2 pathfinders w 4 tetra, each with their own pros and cons.

Ok great. I misunderstood the wording thought it was "any number of...".

gunslinger007 wrote:
reintroduced along with the possibility of hammerheads as upgrades for fire warriors.
I think that's a good compromise if you don't want a dedicated formation.

gunslinger007 wrote:
- at the moment, I do think the heavy suits will be staying out of the core. I havent seen fluff indicating the Vior'la sept had especially high rates of heavy suit usage, as opposed to their high usage of fws and Pfs, so I do want to try and have the list reflect that. I don't believe the list should be able to run as all heavy suits.
A good desicion that I was aslo planning to implement. The possibility of an all heavy suits list feels wrong in Vior'la

Draccan wrote:
Mantas. I think the list can survive without the Manta. What I lack is a reason for taking it out. What was the thinking about it? For a supposedly fast moving, heavy-suit strike force I find it puzzling it is taken out. From a gaming perspective it is a great center-piece and in my opinion goes well with the heavy suits. Tau really only has that one thing going for them to have something Reaver/Warlord sized.
I too see no reason for taking it out. From a fluff perspective it's described as a vehicle for deploying Riptides and other heavy suits. Could probably stay in the list, it's not exactly known for being overpowered. If added then give it a transport capacity for Riptide class suits.
40k wiki wrote:
XV104s are usually deployed from the Tau transport aircraft called Mantas, where their Jetpacks allow them to descend from high altitudes safely.


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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:56 pm 
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@Borka I'm not opposed to the Manta coming back. I don't think it creates too large of a power swing and has great thematic elements.

I thought I read that Mantas carrying heavy suits had to be modified. I'll try and dig it up again, but if anyone can elaborate, that'd be awesome.

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:28 pm 
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Andrew_NZ wrote:
The current stats for the Y'varha would see me never taking them in a halfway competitive list. The other two variants have 4 shooting options, significantly longer range and higher FF. OK, the Y'varha has a very potent main weapon (but 15 cm range, and almost no AP firepower). Given what it is doing, very up close and personal, what about FF 4+, and an extra FF attack due to the Plasma Flamer. That might bring it back somewhat towards par with the other suits.

Just thought I'd nudge the question. Did it get missed in the back and forth?
Am I missing something within the current stats?


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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:28 pm 
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Andrew_NZ wrote:
Andrew_NZ wrote:
The current stats for the Y'varha would see me never taking them in a halfway competitive list. The other two variants have 4 shooting options, significantly longer range and higher FF. OK, the Y'varha has a very potent main weapon (but 15 cm range, and almost no AP firepower). Given what it is doing, very up close and personal, what about FF 4+, and an extra FF attack due to the Plasma Flamer. That might bring it back somewhat towards par with the other suits.

Just thought I'd nudge the question. Did it get missed in the back and forth?
Am I missing something within the current stats?
Nope, you're correct and Kyuss and I were discussing it. I think we're going to start with adding a second FF attack and try the FF 4+ for the Y'varha and look for some play test results from there. I have some concerns that the FF increase might be too much.

I'm also going to tone down the Riptide by removing the Heavy Burst Cannon (@Borka) and subbing in 2x plasma rifle shots, 30cm, 5+/6+.

I'm hoping this will make the different suits enticing at different ranges. The Riptide can still have the signature 45cm MW, but needs to get within 30cm for supplemental shots and will still carry the AA. It becomes more of an all around fighter.

The Y'vahra will increase its roll as a short range armor buster. And the R'varna will be a more resilient, ranged shooter with strong AP. Keep in mind it has the RA and lowered speed compared to the other two heavies.

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:06 am 
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gunslinger007 wrote:
@Draacan
@Resa F - The Shas'o is still fire warrior infantry under the game rules, so he can jump in a devil fish. The alternative is committing to a full crisis suit upgrade and writing into his stat line the appropriate speed, jet packs, etc.

The recon upgrade isn't "supposed" to allow that, as much as it does by way of support formations having four upgrades. I personally don't think a formation of devil fish and tetras is optimal, but someone could take it if they wanted. A player is specifically not supposed to be able to take a full formation of tetras and recreate the Third Sphere formation. Likewise, the upgrade isn't supposed to allow players to create speedy end game formations. If a player wants, they can diversify their PF formation. Trying to force a maxed tetra formation leads to devil fish that don't have cohesion in the formation. If in play testing it becomes apparent that people are only maxing out the upgrade for speedy LV marker lights, we can revisit if its necessary or appropriate.

The idea doesn't seem to be getting much traction, so if it remains unpopular, we can pull it.


Ah ok, that's alright then.

Perhaps with the recon formation having Tetras & Piranhas as an addition to the formation rather than a replacement for existing stands could be tried out? It sill prevents people from recereating Recon Skimmer formations and adds some diversity to the formation..

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 1:53 am 
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Point of correction: the shas'o is described as a character in the upgrade list and also has the character denotation in the unit notes. But is not a character so this is more confusing than it needs to be. You also make it possible for him to replace any one one of several unit types including gun drones, not sure if this is intentional.

I suggest using the standard naming of 'unit' instead of 'stand' and just remove all references to character: "replace one fire warrior unit with a shas'o unit". I assume you don't intend to be able to replace a devilfish or one of the other upgrades. In the way it is modelled it'd still be possible to add one of the characters to the shas'o, not sure if this matters at all.

Also you are missing the devilfish datasheet, to which you will need to add the shas'o if you want him to be transportable.

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:03 pm 
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Kyrt wrote:
Point of correction: the shas'o is described as a character in the upgrade list and also has the character denotation in the unit notes. But is not a character so this is more confusing than it needs to be. You also make it possible for him to replace any one one of several unit types including gun drones, not sure if this is intentional.

I suggest using the standard naming of 'unit' instead of 'stand' and just remove all references to character: "replace one fire warrior unit with a shas'o unit". I assume you don't intend to be able to replace a devilfish or one of the other upgrades. In the way it is modelled it'd still be possible to add one of the characters to the shas'o, not sure if this matters at all.

Also you are missing the devilfish datasheet, to which you will need to add the shas'o if you want him to be transportable.
Thanks Kyrt! I'll make some of the adjustments this weekend. I'm hoping to roll out a 2.1 with the changes we've been discussing the past two weeks. I'll include the Devilfish stat line; StM pointed that out as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:44 am 
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gunslinger007 wrote:
Andrew_NZ wrote:
Andrew_NZ wrote:
The current stats for the Y'varha would see me never taking them in a halfway competitive list. The other two variants have 4 shooting options, significantly longer range and higher FF. OK, the Y'varha has a very potent main weapon (but 15 cm range, and almost no AP firepower). Given what it is doing, very up close and personal, what about FF 4+, and an extra FF attack due to the Plasma Flamer. That might bring it back somewhat towards par with the other suits.

Just thought I'd nudge the question. Did it get missed in the back and forth?
Am I missing something within the current stats?
Nope, you're correct and Kyuss and I were discussing it. I think we're going to start with adding a second FF attack and try the FF 4+ for the Y'varha and look for some play test results from there. I have some concerns that the FF increase might be too much.

I'm also going to tone down the Riptide by removing the Heavy Burst Cannon (@Borka) and subbing in 2x plasma rifle shots, 30cm, 5+/6+.

I'm hoping this will make the different suits enticing at different ranges. The Riptide can still have the signature 45cm MW, but needs to get within 30cm for supplemental shots and will still carry the AA. It becomes more of an all around fighter.

The Y'vahra will increase its roll as a short range armor buster. And the R'varna will be a more resilient, ranged shooter with strong AP. Keep in mind it has the RA and lowered speed compared to the other two heavies.

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Liking the adjustments enough to dig out the big suits for a go.

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 Post subject: Re: Tau Vior'la v2.0
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:49 am 
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Hey Everyone,

V2.1 for the list is now available in the OP. Here's an overview of the changes to the list:
- Inclusion of a Crisis formation as a core unit (no Shas'O availability) and removal as FW upgrade;
- Changing Recon from a swap to an add on. These don't seem to be the most popular, so depending on feedback and lists that people take, these might get pulled to trim the list down.;
- inclusion of the "new Manta" at 575pts, two TK shots at 3+, and Heavy suit carrying ability. Included the Heavies as taking up 4 slots each;
- cleaned up the Shas'O Character/Unit dispute;
- added the devilfish statline;
- gave crisis suits the AT6+ for the plasma rifles;
- downgraded the Riptide Heavy Rotary gun to 2x plasma shots;
-Y'vahra given FF4+ and EA+1;
-Razorshark AA tweaked so that TWC match the Barracuda w/ AA6+. Moved the QIT to AA5+ but kept it FA to prevent a power imbalance.

You can see the list includes a few of the bigger community requests. I held off on the hover tank upgrade at this point. There's already a lot to the list and I want to try to keep it suit focused.

I took the 2.1 list out for two games Saturday. I'll have details up for those later one. As people start play testing, I'm interested specifically to hear people's thoughts on the R'varna suit and the Ghostkeel.

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