Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 72 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5

Vior'la revisited 1.2

 Post subject: Re: Vior'la revisited 1.2
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 11:07 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:15 am
Posts: 333
Here is the offending Vior'la Order of Battle for 4000 point game mentioned above by markconz.

First Heavy BattleSuit Wing, with attached Pathfinder Support
2 XV109 Y'vahra, XV104 Riptide, Shas'el [300]
3 XV109 Y'vahra, Shas'el [275]
3 XV109 Y'vahra, Shas'el [275]
4 Pathfinders, 2 Devilfish [175]
4 Pathfinders, 2 Devilfish [175]

Second Heavy BattleSuit Wing, with attached Pathfinder Support
2 XV109 Y'vahra, XV104 Riptide, Shas'el [300]
3 XV109 Y'vahra, Shas'el [275]
3 XV109 Y'vahra, Shas'el [275]
4 Pathfinders, 2 Devilfish [175]
4 Pathfinders, 2 Devilfish [175]

Support Heavy BattleSuit Wing, with attached Pathfinder Support
4 XV107 R'varna, Shas'el, Skyray [550]
2 XV107 R'varna, Shas'el, XV109 Y'vahra, Skyray [425]
3 XV109 Y'vahra, Shas'el [275]
4 Pathfinders, 2 Devilfish [175]
4 Pathfinders, 2 Devilfish [175]

My initial aim was to get every Heavy Battle Suit model I have painted onto the table using the new (Borka) NetEA Vior'la List. The force is rather light with AA cover and this did not come back to haunt me because the Chaos Air Support thought it was a cunning Tau trap and threw 1s for activation, including after having the Supreme Commander on table telling them it was not [triple 1s]. Also no Shas'o (not available in those formations) but with near pop-corm Initiative 1+ formations that is not much of a worry.

You can see I have maxed out the cheapest Heavy Battle Suits (almost maxed out - that was all I had of one type) and heavily supported them with the discounted Pathfinder Groups. If I'd had one more XV109 the force would have dropped one Pathfinder formation, traded an XV107 for the cheaper XV109 and added two more skyrays to the heavy suits. Anyway that is fiddling. On to the basic issues.

I like the Pathfinder Groups compared to the Tetra based Recon Groups. Four potent infantry scouts typically set up in covered shooting positions on overwatch with marker-lights (expect 2 Sniper hits and 2 Disrupt hits on any infantry/LV formation attacking them). The Devilfish deployed in some hidden position behind still have Line of Fire (due to their Guided Missiles) so they can soak BM suppression and/or provide some AT fire. In comparison the Tetra/Piranha are all light vehicles (so find getting in cover more challenging, have mobility issues if they do and are vulnerable to both AP and AT fire), and have next to no firepower/FF. They do have more mobility so ARE BETTER at securing crossfires and are usually better placed for projecting marker-lights further forward. At 200 pts vs 175 pts I tend to take a mix optimised for static and mobile roles. At 175 pts vs 175 pts I'll take the Pathfinders every time - bit weird how strongly that is with me given only a 25 point shift but I think it is highly coloured by maintaining activation count. Did think about mixing some Tetras into 2 or 3 of the above Pathfinder Groups, as a trial, but didn't in the end.

In our games stretching a markerlight unit to within 30 cm of an enemy formation frequently triggers an assault activation in response and the formation often get wiped out on combat resolution. Somehow the Recon Groups seem to suffer this more frequently!? Probably the way I handle them more aggressively but also the in-ability to place them in cover (dangerous terrain tests and not into building/etc) combined with the weaker FF factors.

The XV109 Y'vahra is potent at 75 points. 3 Suits [225], Shas'el [25], activation [25] = 275 points for the formation, upgrades [75 ea]. The net effect of the Tau Jump Packs is somewhat dependant on terrain size and conventions but as an experience for the opposing player it is additionally demoralising. The Tau formation rushes forward, more-or-less obliterates one of your formations with firepower, then jumps back to safety (at least somewhat out of sight/line-of-fire). The initiative 1+ formation can also provide coordinated fire to place markerlights and crossfire opportunities. All very Tau special-rule demoralising/overwhelming. Cap that with a review of the prospects of engaging the 3 Y'vahra in a retaliatory assault (6 FF4+, 3 FF4 IC, Armour 3+/5+ inv) and the "those are seriously overpowered" mantle is confirmed. It would doubtless trigger our Australian Brethren's DBAD (Don't be a Dick) rule.

This post has got rather long. Mark did a comparison of the Y'vahra with an Imperial Knight above. I'd like to point out an internal comparison with a Broadside Group [300 pts] and the slightly buffed Crisis Group [325 pts]. But will do that in a future post.

Given the Heavy Battle Suit and Pathfinder Groups are both in the core section you almost don't need to take anything else. So in terms of stress testing the list you need some games with just those (by themselves separately or in combination). So assuming just putting the Y'vahra back up to 350 points for the three (like the other suits) brings it back somewhat in line how does this Army List look at 3000 points? Skyray at +75 pts.

4 XV107 R'varna, Shas'el, Skyray [525]
3 XV104 Riptide, Shas'el, Skyray [425]
3 XV104 Riptide, Shas'el, Skyray [425]
3 XV104 Riptide, Shas'el, Skyray [425]
3 XV109 Y'vahra, Shas'el, Skyray [425]
3 XV109 Y'vahra, Shas'el, Skyray [425]
3 XV109 Y'vahra, Shas'el [350]

If you don't like the low activation count:

4 XV107 R'varna, Shas'el, Skyray [525]
3 XV104 Riptide, Shas'el, Skyray [425]
3 XV104 Riptide, Shas'el, Skyray [425]
3 XV109 Y'vahra, Shas'el [350]
3 XV109 Y'vahra, Shas'el [350]
4 Pathfinders, 2 Devilfish, 2 Gun Drones [200]
4 Pathfinders, 2 Devilfish, 2 Gun Drones [200]
4 Pathfinders, 2 Devilfish [175]
4 Pathfinders, 2 Devilfish [175]
4 Pathfinders, 2 Devilfish [175]


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vior'la revisited 1.2
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:56 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 7:30 am
Posts: 1486
Location: Örebro, Sweden
Sorry for the slow answer. All available hobby time last two weeks have been going to preparing for a campaign day I'm hosting.

Yeah that list is a real stress test of the Y'vahra. With Vior'la I'd still like FW to be mainstay. I thought that the prerequisite to have FW for support choices would be enoguh. The above kind of list is not what I have intended and doesn't seem lika a lot of fun to meet. Do you guys think it should be allowed?

I see a few simple amendment. One is to move pathfinders to support like the UK list.
Another is to limit heavy suits and PFs to 0-2 (or something) per FW formation.
Increased price for the Y'vahra, but that still makes the above kind of list possible.
Other suggestions? preference?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vior'la revisited 1.2
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:34 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 01, 2014 2:48 am
Posts: 938
Location: NJ, USA
It could be worth shifting heavy suits into an "Elite" category that is 1:1 to core formations. If you really wanted to restrict the list design, maybe move PFs into it as well and make it a 1:2 ratio to core.

I'm note sure this would work if PF are left core though, as you could still end up with a build of just heavy suits and PFs.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

_________________
Grey Knights AC: viewtopic.php?f=130&t=33750

Tau AC: viewforum.php?

Net EA Chair

The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vior'la revisited 1.2
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:41 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:03 pm
Posts: 6353
Location: Leicester UK
Or drop the skyrays from the heavy suits, if you do that it severely weakens a suit-spam list against air assault...

_________________
NetEA Space Marine, Imperial Fists and Blood Angels Army Champion

NetEA Red Corsairs Army Champion

My hobby/painting threads

Army Forge List Co-ordinator


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vior'la revisited 1.2
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:56 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 01, 2014 2:48 am
Posts: 938
Location: NJ, USA
kyussinchains wrote:
Or drop the skyrays from the heavy suits, if you do that it severely weakens a suit-spam list against air assault...
I agree with Kyuss on this. Sticking Skyrays into heavy suit formations provides strong, mobile, "mini castles" that I think most armies will have trouble dealing with, especially in bulk. Restructuring how the list builds aside, I think this should be a top priority.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

_________________
Grey Knights AC: viewtopic.php?f=130&t=33750

Tau AC: viewforum.php?

Net EA Chair

The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vior'la revisited 1.2
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 7:33 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2012 6:53 am
Posts: 34
Question Orca Capacity- how many space takes up brodside suits? the list only states crisis suits so i assume it is same

_________________
Soul Reavers Chaos Warhost PLog

Tau Empire T´ros Coalition PLog


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vior'la revisited 1.2
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:33 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:15 am
Posts: 333
Haydencz wrote:
Question Orca Capacity- how many space takes up brodside suits? the list only states crisis suits so i assume it is same
Crisis Suit unit takes 2 transport slots [infantry unit assumes 3 suits]
Broadside Suit ("unit") requires only one slot [Light Vehicle assumes only one actual suit]
Quote:
DESIGN NOTES
Basing Tau Units: Although infantry, Crisis Battlesuits and Krootox should be mounted 2-4 to a base. Fire Warriors, Pathfinders, Stealth, Gun Drones, Kroot, Kroot Hounds, Kroot Master Shapers are based as regular infantry. All other units are based individually. Feel free to add a Drone to infantry and Battlesuit stands, as well as light vehicle bases and armoured vehicles, if you wish. The Broadside unit assumes a single battlesuit accompanied by controlled shield drones.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vior'la revisited 1.2
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 11:55 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 7:30 am
Posts: 1486
Location: Örebro, Sweden
gunslinger007 wrote:
kyussinchains wrote:
Or drop the skyrays from the heavy suits, if you do that it severely weakens a suit-spam list against air assault...
I agree with Kyuss on this. Sticking Skyrays into heavy suit formations provides strong, mobile, "mini castles" that I think most armies will have trouble dealing with, especially in bulk. Restructuring how the list builds aside, I think this should be a top priority.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

Yeah I too think this is a good idea. Will remove the skyray option in the next update.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vior'la revisited 1.2
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:10 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 7:56 pm
Posts: 698
Location: Lancaster, PA
Borka wrote:
gunslinger007 wrote:
kyussinchains wrote:
Or drop the skyrays from the heavy suits, if you do that it severely weakens a suit-spam list against air assault...
I agree with Kyuss on this. Sticking Skyrays into heavy suit formations provides strong, mobile, "mini castles" that I think most armies will have trouble dealing with, especially in bulk. Restructuring how the list builds aside, I think this should be a top priority.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

Yeah I too think this is a good idea. Will remove the skyray option in the next update.


The suits are WE correct. Wouldn't they block LOS for the skyray? no marker light unless it was up front with it's dick in the wind? no 360!

_________________
mattie
http://maashes.blogspot.com/


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vior'la revisited 1.2
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:49 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:15 am
Posts: 333
m_folais wrote:
The suits are WE correct. Wouldn't they block LOS for the skyray? no marker light unless it was up front with it's dick in the wind? no 360!
War Engines with Tau Jump Packs. So they advance/double shoot with markerlights (Skyray at 30 cm) then Suits jump pack 10 cm to ring the skyray in RA4+. But note it can still shoot AA since that does not get blocked. But it can be sniped since aircraft AT can specify shooting at AV not WE.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vior'la revisited 1.2
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:08 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 7:30 am
Posts: 1486
Location: Örebro, Sweden
Yeah what Andrew points out is a valid tactic and It’s a skimmer so can pop up and see over the suits in any case.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vior'la revisited 1.2
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:55 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:32 pm
Posts: 810
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
I played this list monday.
I must say I am more than a little underwhelmed by the Heay suits. A Riptide i basically just a bigger crisis suit that is 5cm faster, has Slightly better weapons, a deflector shield instead of invulnerable, and DC2.
While costing twice as much per.

I feel they should be more expensive and a Lot more capable.

_________________
Let there be code.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 72 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net