I know the feeling.

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AMTL does seem like a very tough match up for the tau, given they have no MW to speak of except on a 375 point air unit (far far too much to want to commit to air before even adding CAP capability).

I also noticed the lack of alpha strike, the only way to do counter-battery is with teleport or (slightly less risky) orca broadsides, both of which involve sacrificing tactical flexibility and probably also the units themselves.

Having absolutely no barrage in the list - even from the spaceships - also has its effect though it feels right for tau.

Don't really know what can be done about most of these though without making up units or weapons that shouldn't exist. Is there a case for MW on rail guns? Not sure when Lance exists. And broadsides are so far in my few games proving to be pretty good units as they are, I wouldn't want them to cost any more than they already do.

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The one thing that has concerned me so far that I worry is not taken into account is that the tau concentrate their weapons into few units, this makes them much more vulnerable to BMs. The first time tau get to shoot at marker lit targets is very.... fun. If they lose a couple of units first it's back to the usual disappointment of shooting that you come to expect of other armies (ie it usually doesn't do much).

By the way, I find myself wondering a lot - I'm sure I remember in the old days Tau had a special countercharge rule - they could countercharge backwards. Whatever happened to that?

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Steve54 regularly places in the top 3 at tournaments using the v6.6 Tau list, and having played against him many times (and mostly lost) I'm really at a loss to explain why the list performs so poorly for other people.... unless we're just a bunch of terrible terrible players here in the UK scene and never put up much of a fight

broadly, I find he tends to hang back at first and sustain with seeker missiles, often using recons to call co-ordinated fire, he tends to focus on things like artillery and smaller formations, reducing activation count and long range shooting, and spreading blast markers around, it's only later in the game that he tends to push forwards and swarm stuff, a couple of hammerhead formations doing a co-ordinated fire action on a markerlit target tends to hurt, especially when it has a few blast markers and ends up crossfired....

He also pretty much always takes a hero class spaceship, it's just ideal for knocking out stuff like storm serpents, void spinners, shadowswords and even having a pop at titans.... IIRC last time he went up against titans managed a lucky kill on a reaver with a pair of pinpoints.....

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I've had a grand total of 1 game against Tau, but I've been following the debate with interest, since I like their alternative approach (an army that needs to shoot to win, while avoiding engagements).

It looks to me like the Tau don't have the tools to take on all comers with the same list - an unit will either be good at crowd control with lots of AP shooting, or good at tankhunting with AT railguns etc. However, against a mono-type army (best exemplified by AMTL or Minervans), half the units in a balanced Tau force becomes useless. This is less a problem for armies that can engage, since CC and FF dice cares not what type of unit they face.

I'd suggest balancing this with a simple fix to Fire Warriors and Battlesuits weapons:
Fire Warriors:
Pulse Rifle 30cm AP4+/AT6+
Pulse Carbine 15cm AP5+ Disrupt


Crisis Battlesuit:
Missile Pods 45cm AP5+/AT6+
Flamer 15 cm 1BP, Ignore Cover
Twin Plasma Rifles 30cm AP4+/AT6+
Twin Fusion Blasters 15cm MW4+

The AT capability of both pulse rifles and plasma rifles is well founded in 40K stats; These weapons may not have great penetratating power, but can usually kill APCs (and AFVs from the rear) through volume of fire.

In Epic terms, the addition of slightly more AT firepower means that (with markerlights and crossfires) these core units can pose realistic threats against all-AV formations too, and can do it without engaging.

I added the crisis Flamer to give the (generally underperforming) battlesuits a role in handling densely packed formations, and because the unit looks a weapon short (3 suits should have six weapons).

Fire warriors are really good as they are, to deal with AVs take hheads or broadsides.

Regarding alpha strike I always start with a recon formations forward trailing back to a mech FW formation, then coordinated fire with the recon and FW. Recon double forward and ML the target and shoot depending on the tetra/piranha makeup then the mech FW single or double behind cover and shoot their guided missiles. One coordinated fire and lots of guided missiles.

In my experience tau are perfect against titans - lots of recon to feed the titans restricting movement and burning AMTL activations and speed+skimmer to hide.

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Interesting, will have to give them a go myself Steve.

Also to add, as defence for assaults I have quite liked being able to put mech FW or anything with skyrays on OW behind cover, then use their guided missiles to deter assaults on anything near markerlights. Very situational tho.

Is there a particular reason why the infantry can't attack AT by the way?

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This is absolutely correct, and has become more of an issue over the last couple of years. Minervans and AMTL are both popular locally, and they basically ignore the firepower of a number of tau units. I've played a number of games where the opponent just drops 50 Leman Russes or some titans, and for better or worse it looks like that sort of list that can render all your AP weapons obsolete is going to be more common.

However, giving FW an AT gun may not be ideal (I can't see them getting away without a price increase!), so if that sort of Personnel-free list is common where you play you might consider trying the Vior'la version that tackles this to a degree by allowing a purchasable Cadre Fireblade that upgrades their FF.

Have no illusions, it doesn't make them great vs Minervans and other AV armies, but what it does is make them relevant. They can have an impact on the game beyond digging-in near an objective and trying not to be noticed

I tend to try and be quite politic about these sorts of things, but hey you have caught me on a bad day

The Tau Third Phase list is balanced and works as a patient hunter list, if you want a more aggressive style list play the Vior'la list.

I will repeat again the Third Phase list is balanced that means it wins and it loses in most situations based on how well you play, if you personally are having problems winning (for instance if you have worse than 30-40% win / 30-40% loss / 30-40% draw) your games with the list the problem is almost certainly with you. harsh I know, don't worry it's probably just a playstyle issue, most game players tend to be quite aggressive and attacking in style and that doesn't work well with the list (of course you also might just be rubbish ,thats a joke).

That's not to say it doesn't have some poor match-ups (it also has good ones like all balanced lists). When designing an army for play, getting a perfect balance of AP to AT to markerlights is a very important element you need to learn (you may need to adapt the ratio of these dependant on your local meta).

It was found to be a bit broken and not very fun to play against.

If you take a bog standard Mech Firewarrior formation (225pts) it comes with 3 x 90cm AT6+, which is rubbish, but is not no AT. Then add synergy with markerlights and no line of sight and annoying overwatch ideas and the list is greater than the sum of its parts.

If you mean why don't the pulse rifles have AT its because in epic most weapons when translated from 40K with ST5 or below were translated as AP weapons and stuff ST6 and above got an AT value.

Adding an AT shot to pulse rifles with the way the list works combined with markerlights would be very powerful and almost certainly require a list redesign as well as not really making much sense background wise.

Tau are rubbish at engageing in the epic army by design, that is not to say they cannot engage. In almost everygame I play with Tau, especially when I win. I usually end up initiating an engage of some sort (my favourite memory is prepping a slightly weakened Russ company with blast markers and dumping an Orca full of Fire Warriors into base to base so everyone got to try and roll a 6+ and I won on resolution).

Broadsides are FF5+ and have 4+ reinforced armour, Fire Warriors are FF5+ with 5+ armour and can certainly launch an engage, just pick your target well and realise like everyone else who relies on engageing to win it is risky and may go wrong (unlike the honourable way of just shooting the enemy dead).

The real weakness comes when they are engaged (as the opponent will almost certainly prep with blast markers and make sure the assault is won easily, they still occasionally lose though and when they do remember not to smile too much). But if you do the prepping and launch the assault it is perfectly possible to win engagements with Tau (it's just generally their short range firepower is so good you don't need or want to).

Sorry yme-loc I'm certain you put a lot of hard work into this list.

BUT your last 4 post say a lot about you and the problems on this board. Its full of self congratulation, without listening to the problems being brought up by play testers.

'So you can't auto win using my list? Thats your problem, my list is great, you are just playing it wrong'.

You need to see there are problems with this list. Ignore my input I'm a grade 'A' arsehole, but please listen to the other people on this page who are voicing valid concerns and putting a lot of time into battle reports and play testing.

Take your head out of the sand.

Edit: As for patent hunter this is a 3-4 turn game.

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You have turns 1 and 2 for patient hunter and turns 3 and 4 for winning.

If I follow your logic, I have a list of people suggesting some changes, mostly to perceived problems brought up by you and Dobbsy.

At the same time I have my own experience with the list, a few other people saying they have experience with the list and like the playstyle but are a little worried about the effect of blast markers, one player saying he is regularly beaten by another using the list and another saying the list is fine.

Why should I send the list completely back to experimental for you making the opinion that the list is unusable (despite a great deal of evidence to the contrary) and because of Dobbsies dice.

Effectively this is what you seem to be suggesting, now unfortunately I can come accross as arrogant (who doesn't sometimes on the internet) and maybe I am arrogant but at the end of the day if I made every suggested change that pops up here there would be no list for people to be bemoaning in the first place.

We have a best of both worlds here, the Third Phase list is a tricky list to use but is very powerful if you get your head arround its playstyle (I have had players think it is too powerful after playing against it). At the same time Matt-Shadowlord has put a lot of very good effort into a much more aggressive style list for those who want to play that way.

So where is the problem?

The problem with the ERC, as I see it, is more with army champions vanishing for months and delays of months and years in new versions and answers to truly simple questions on some lists.

On the other hand, I didn't pay a sincle crown for any of their work. Real life Will come first when it comes to volounteer work; hell I place my own life over my paid work all the time.

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