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Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.9

 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.8a
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 3:08 pm 
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Steve54 wrote:
Adding new stuff isn't necessarily power creep but when you lose nothing in return and the units taken from other lists are then boosted then you're not going to get anything but power creep.


I disagree. No not if done properly, then it adds flavor and tactical options, but that is in no way equal to power creep.

Steve54 wrote:
What's the justification for boosting fire warriors and orcas? As far as I can see it's just to make them better. Similarly why boost the list with smaller recon?


I don't know, you'd have to ask Matt for that. You can see my thought on those units/issues a few posts back.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.8a
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 3:13 pm 
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Borka wrote:
Steve54 wrote:
Adding new stuff isn't necessarily power creep but when you lose nothing in return and the units taken from other lists are then boosted then you're not going to get anything but power creep.


I disagree. No not if done properly, then it adds flavor and tactical options, but that is in no way equal to power creep.

Taking a balanced existing list and then adding a number of units that remove many of its weaknesses and boosting a number of existing units to improve them AND reducing costs to allow more activations isn't power creep?

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.8a
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 3:52 pm 
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What people need to bear in mind when doing these lists that include all the new *stuff* from GW is that the new armies in GW fluff ARE "all the old kit plus these big robots" so if you include EVERYTHING that the new Codex or whatever includes then you are going against the list design philosophies of NetEA. New kit's all fine and dandy but not when it comes with all of the options of the old lists as well (even if those old options aren't boosted as they are in this list...)

I'm sure Codex Marine players would LOVE to have the Kitchen Sink list approved for all of the options and stuff but EA doesn't work like that


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.8a
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 6:56 pm 
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Steve54 wrote:
What's the justification for boosting fire warriors and orcas? As far as I can see it's just to make them better. Similarly why boost the list with smaller recon?


This is exactly what i've asked myself also.
I don't mind bringing in som new bigger suits to allow for more WE:s (which I'm afan of in general). But the above examples are things i can't see the rationale over.

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.8a
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 7:59 pm 
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Steve54 wrote:
Borka wrote:
Steve54 wrote:
Adding new stuff isn't necessarily power creep but when you lose nothing in return and the units taken from other lists are then boosted then you're not going to get anything but power creep.


I disagree. No not if done properly, then it adds flavor and tactical options, but that is in no way equal to power creep.

Taking a balanced existing list and then adding a number of units that remove many of its weaknesses and boosting a number of existing units to improve them AND reducing costs to allow more activations isn't power creep?


Sorry missread your previous post. Thought you were saying that adding new stuff was by it self bad for balance, but you didn't obviously when I reread it.

But I don't think you necessarily have to loose something bacause you add units. I think balance can be achieved through stats/rules and points adjustments in many cases.
The ta'unar for instance should be priced higher IMO than if it would have been added to guards as it's clearly adressing a Tau weakness, giving it IC is probably taking it to far as well. I believe it can be added and tweaked so it doesn't make the list on a whole stronger.



EDIT: added here instead op dubble posting:

flyingthruwater wrote:
What people need to bear in mind when doing these lists that include all the new *stuff* from GW is that the new armies in GW fluff ARE "all the old kit plus these big robots" so if you include EVERYTHING that the new Codex or whatever includes then you are going against the list design philosophies of NetEA. New kit's all fine and dandy but not when it comes with all of the options of the old lists as well (even if those old options aren't boosted as they are in this list...)

I'm sure Codex Marine players would LOVE to have the Kitchen Sink list approved for all of the options and stuff but EA doesn't work like that


This is interesting, I hadn't really given this much thought before. Yeah we often say there's a philosophy of having tight lists representing a specific engagement in epic, but is that really true though? Codex marines is a bad example for instance. There is nothing about the list that supports the philosophy. It's extremely flexible. It doesn't force you down any building path at all really. You can have an army with only footsloggers or a list without a single tactical marine or any inf really. You can go air drop heavy, termies only and so on. It included basically all marine stuff and was seems like kitchen sink list to me based on the time of creation. The original orks and eldar lists are also very open. The design philosophy is not apparent IMO in the original epic lists made by GW (except for LatD perhaps?). I think it's good to keep these lists mostly intact though as it's the original lists against which we can try to balance new stuff. But I'm getting a bit of topic with this.


Back on track. I agree however that not every new unit in 40k needs adding. Tau are a special case though. The only real warengine is the manta. They have received a lot of new stuff lately in 40k. Most of these units make a lot of sense for epic, especially for an army that are lacking in tactical options and in the WE-department. One of the fun aspects of epic is getting to play with the big toys (without the game looking really silly as a titan does in 40k). They make Tau, in my opinion, more interesting and fun to play, which is a good thing.

The AC of the third phase list have shown no interest in adding new stuff to the list, therefore I believe they're best added here.

mordoten wrote:
Steve54 wrote:
What's the justification for boosting fire warriors and orcas? As far as I can see it's just to make them better. Similarly why boost the list with smaller recon?


This is exactly what i've asked myself also.
I don't mind bringing in som new bigger suits to allow for more WE:s (which I'm afan of in general). But the above examples are things i can't see the rationale over.


Already available stuff in the third phase list should really only be improved if they're bad and underperforming. I don't think that applies to recon, FW or the orca.
The added 4+ FF I've found to be minor though. I've tried it a few games, it really didn't have an impact and comes at a price. I think Matts stated goal was to make it easier to be more aggressive with fire warriors. I could see the upgrade go or stay.


Last edited by Borka on Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.8a
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 2:58 am 
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I'm an outsider to this discussion, but I took a peek at the lists after the hubbub spilled over into the Epic Armageddon subforum.

The first thing I see is that the two lists have the same core formations and that seems unusual for variant lists (other than Space Marines, which have a million slight-variant lists largely to cover the shear number of units they have if you combine them all). That's a bad start; it strengthens the argument that one list is just the other one plus more.

On the other hand, neither list has that many units. They've got single-page reference sheets, and a lot of space is dedicated to unit variants (like the Hammerheads and Tiger Sharks). The 3rd Phase Expansion list doesn't appear to have barrage weapons and only limited (TK) - filling those gaps is potentially a big deal, but does that make Vior'la overpowered or was the 3rd Phase list suffering without those things? Most core lists cover all those things.

So, dunno. The new big mechs feel like they'd fit into the main list. Heck, it feels like the list is incomplete without them.

The themed lists that I would expect for Tau would be:
a) core list with varied support formations but fewer of them allowed (e.g. 2 per core)
b) tanks and suits with high movement rates only
c) smaller suits as core formations, easier to take more big suits, fewer slots for non-suits
d) coalition army with lots of Kroot and Vespids, even as core (but no core crisis suits)

Or something like that. Take with a grain of salt because I have no experience with or against Tau. But I'm also not restrained by the history of the current approved list.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.8a
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:32 pm 
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Batrep

Cadian vs Vior'la Tau

http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=32206

Comments:
So I played my first game against Vior’La Tau. That being said I played just under a dozen games against Dobbsy’s Tau back in 2014/2015 when he was doing army list development (I played IG and SM against him then). Played Cadian for the first time against Atension’s Vior’la Tau (his second game with the Tau). A bit of a learning curve for both of us (although Atension’s was steeper as I play IG normally).

One thing about Tau is that they are not an easy list to master. There are a lot of synergies that need to happen to truly play to the Tau lists strengths. At face value, the list should appear weak. It truly shines when in the hands of a skilled player that can maximize the markerlight ability, leverage the Tau mobility to gain crossfire bonuses and focus/coordinated fire on key enemy formations to break them with massed firepower before they even get a chance to activate.

Having played about ~9 games against Tau (Dobbsy) many moons ago using Imperial Guard I can say that the play style of the Vior’la Tau bring several significant changes to the Tau play style that they did not have before.
In this game they were:
- Barrage templates (this is a big one) (Supremacy)
- Significant indirect accurate fire (3+) that reached from deployment zone to deployment zone (Supremacy)
- Cheaper Recon formations with markerlights
- LOTS of toys (I was surprised at all the exotic units that are typically restricted to the 1/3 of points allies/air force section), in this battle there was a Manta, Orca, Tiger Shark, Riptides and 2 Supremacy formations
- Orca did not make an appearance but would have been decisive especially in conjunction with Supremacy prep for assault.

Some thoughts

Supremacy
Cool unit that feels really too good right now and breaks some of the core Tau principals (that being that when Tau were designed they were not to have any barrage weapons, poor engagement, but lots of shooting).
Issue is the Supremacy DC3 WE with armor 3+ being able to shoot 120cm indirect barrages where the army list did not have this capability before. Biggest concern is the barrage (design concept of Tau was to not have any barrage and have lots of fire power) and ability to target from deployment zone to deployment zone.

Suggestion: change the Pulse Ordnance Multi-driver stats to 2 fire modes:
75cm 3x AP5+/AT4+ lance or 75cm 3x AP6+/AT5+ guided missile

With markerlit target and sustain fire action this looks like:
75cm 3x AP3+/AT2+ lance or indirect 75cm 3x AP4+/AT3+ guided missile
So still very powerful, with the emphasis still on direct firepower.
Addresses the barrage capability and the deployment zone to deployment zone range capability (although you will admit this is still a lot of board control with a double move plus range).

Can hit a markerlit target out to 105cm 3x AP5+/AT4+ lance or indirect 105cm 3x AP6+/AT5+ guided missile on a double move. Plus the Supremacy has seeker missiles (90cm 2x AT6+ guided missile) so indirect 120cm 2x AT6+ guided missile at a markerlit target on a double move.


Cader Fireblade
This is a no brainer updgrade for 25 pts (give FF4+ to entire formation) with no downside.
Suggestions: Collapse/combine this ability into the Shas’el Commander upgrade and increase the cost to 100pts or remove Cader Fireblade from list completely.

Orca
The upgrade of Invulnerable 5+save takes this unit to a whole new level game and adds a very significant new meta to the Tau’s arsenal of tricks. In a Vior’el list, and Orca ground assaulting with a Warrior Group upgraded with Cader Fireblade becomes a very scary proposition by itself (as compared to what the current Tau list can do). Additionally this alpha strike can be greatly aided by the Supremacy 120cm indirect fire prepping barrage and/or AA suppression.
Suggestion: Keep Orcas the same as currently found in base Tau list.

Flyers
Sun Bomber have barrage capabilities which was never the theme of the Tau (Tau were designed to have lots of direct fire capability and no barrage capability). Additionally this unit does not take into consideration the multiplier effect of markerlights on its capabilities and points.
Razorshark Strike Fighter seem like list bloat and there role is fulfilled by the Barracuda.
Suggestion: remove both Sun Bomber and Razorshark from list.

Tau have very good AA. The Skyray (60cm 2xAA5+) can be imbedded into Warrior or Armor Groups to make them very hard to be suppressed. Tau already have good AA and adding additional air capabilities would take this army up several notches in level of air power.

Recon Group
Concern that the drop in points for the formation could make this spamable and affect the Tau build list meta. Not sure why the change in unit stats from the Tau list to the Vior’el list.
Suggestion: Personally I would keep the same stats and formation size/point value as in the Tau base list.

Allies/Flyers
Typically this limit is 1/3. In the Vior’la Tau list there are a lot of new toys that should be considered restricted. Suggestion: Supremacy formation should be in this category.

Core/Support Ratio
1 Core formation unlocking 3 support formations MAY need to be looked at once unit cost/capabilities have been tweaked and playtesting has occurred.
Suggestion: No immediate change but possibly something to look at down the line to bring this list closer to approval status.

Caveat on all of the above is that I realize that this is my first game against the Vior’el so I am reporting my first impressions. Also I am aware that this is a development list and therefore things can and will change. I am not commenting on point value, just on unit capabilities and list meta as I feel that is a good place to start.

I look forward to getting this list approved and I think there are some good elements to the list that will enhance the playing experience for Tau players and opponents alike.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.8a
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 5:21 am 
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Paradox wrote:
Supremacy
Cool unit that feels really too good right now and breaks some of the core Tau principals (that being that when Tau were designed they were not to have any barrage weapons, poor engagement, but lots of shooting).
Issue is the Supremacy DC3 WE with armor 3+ being able to shoot 120cm indirect barrages where the army list did not have this capability before. Biggest concern is the barrage (design concept of Tau was to not have any barrage and have lots of fire power) and ability to target from deployment zone to deployment zone.

Suggestion: change the Pulse Ordnance Multi-driver stats to 2 fire modes:
75cm 3x AP5+/AT4+ lance or 75cm 3x AP6+/AT5+ guided missile

With markerlit target and sustain fire action this looks like:
75cm 3x AP3+/AT2+ lance or indirect 75cm 3x AP4+/AT3+ guided missile
So still very powerful, with the emphasis still on direct firepower.
Addresses the barrage capability and the deployment zone to deployment zone range capability (although you will admit this is still a lot of board control with a double move plus range).

Can hit a markerlit target out to 105cm 3x AP5+/AT4+ lance or indirect 105cm 3x AP6+/AT5+ guided missile on a double move. Plus the Supremacy has seeker missiles (90cm 2x AT6+ guided missile) so indirect 120cm 2x AT6+ guided missile at a markerlit target on a double move.

Cader Fireblade
This is a no brainer updgrade for 25 pts (give FF4+ to entire formation) with no downside.
Suggestions: Collapse/combine this ability into the Shas’el Commander upgrade and increase the cost to 100pts or remove Cader Fireblade from list completely.

Orca
The upgrade of Invulnerable 5+save takes this unit to a whole new level game and adds a very significant new meta to the Tau’s arsenal of tricks. In a Vior’el list, and Orca ground assaulting with a Warrior Group upgraded with Cader Fireblade becomes a very scary proposition by itself (as compared to what the current Tau list can do). Additionally this alpha strike can be greatly aided by the Supremacy 120cm indirect fire prepping barrage and/or AA suppression.
Suggestion: Keep Orcas the same as currently found in base Tau list.

Flyers
Sun Bomber have barrage capabilities which was never the theme of the Tau (Tau were designed to have lots of direct fire capability and no barrage capability). Additionally this unit does not take into consideration the multiplier effect of markerlights on its capabilities and points.
Razorshark Strike Fighter seem like list bloat and there role is fulfilled by the Barracuda.
Suggestion: remove both Sun Bomber and Razorshark from list.

Tau have very good AA. The Skyray (60cm 2xAA5+) can be imbedded into Warrior or Armor Groups to make them very hard to be suppressed. Tau already have good AA and adding additional air capabilities would take this army up several notches in level of air power.

Recon Group
Concern that the drop in points for the formation could make this spamable and affect the Tau build list meta. Not sure why the change in unit stats from the Tau list to the Vior’el list.
Suggestion: Personally I would keep the same stats and formation size/point value as in the Tau base list.

Allies/Flyers
Typically this limit is 1/3. In the Vior’la Tau list there are a lot of new toys that should be considered restricted. Suggestion: Supremacy formation should be in this category.

Core/Support Ratio
1 Core formation unlocking 3 support formations MAY need to be looked at once unit cost/capabilities have been tweaked and playtesting has occurred.
Suggestion: No immediate change but possibly something to look at down the line to bring this list closer to approval status.


I thought about this too (supremacy, Recon spam and the core/support ratio). When trying to build a good balanced list they all kinda balance each other out. You need the Recons, the supremacy are great to have but also you need a formation that's larger to be the BTS (riptides or Battlesuits) and then already you start to struggle with the 1:3 core ratio trying to get it all in. The list requires a high activation as i'm finding it plays quite similar to Eldar (set up favourable engagements and markerlight situations). Matt mentioned the supremacy are going to be going up to 250 already in the next iteration.

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.8a
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 10:36 pm 
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Hmm, don't forget that tournament lists should provide 'balanced' armies in a range from 2750 to 500 points. While these combinations may be less viable at 3000 points, do they become abusive at higher ranges?


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.8a
PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 1:05 am 
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Don't think I feel the same with regard the barrage, I think it's ability to control movement and positioning in the opponent is important and is a valid part of Epic tactics. I think getting rid of the penalties for clustering together against a primarily shooting list just encourages gameyness in the games I've played. Smaller numbers of templates the Vior'la can but down keeps things a little more honest.

Plus Tau have have blast weapons from day 1 with the hammerhead (and Manta missiles) and subsequent editions have added more and more area effect weapons - only two stratagems they had in Planetstrike were an EMP for disabling wargear and vehicles across the whole battlefield for later salvage or a neutron bomb that would just effect living flesh and leave abandoned cities to strip. There's a lot of drone-orientated cluster weaponry in their later kit and hits to it in earlier editions.

I get it was something in the earlier version of the list, but I think there's a bit of difference for the sake of difference there and that the list works despite that focus rather than because of it. Though if you were looking to make the 3rd Sphere and Vior'la lists more different - pin point strikes and no templates vs orbital bombardments (maybe even one with AP or AT values for Icefire EMP or Darkstar neutron bombardment) to emphasise the difference might be a thing.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.8a
PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 5:48 pm 
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We play here quite often against Tau (both 3rd phase and Vior'la), and the version with IF Supremacy just takes a huge step forward in power. Just the opinion here locally (Fireblade being another very powerful option).

But regarding the topic of 1:2 ratio support... I'll bring up the example of the LatD lists. The original lists (both NetEA and UK) are quite "subpar", and I have to say that the REDUX one, that we are trying now, is way more flexible, fun and interesting to play.... despite losing lots of options and units!!!! (all the traitor support) thanks to increasing the support ratio from 1:1 to 1:2. I think going the other way with Vior'la is a very good option, ie, adding new units (compared to 3rd phase) but reducing the support ratio.

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.8a
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 5:57 am 
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my 2 cents

5 recon and 6 recon. you kill 2 on 5 and its broken. you kill 2 on 6 and its not broken. hard to kill when they are spread out around cover. assault. just move of a chance to wipe them out and not fulfil their roll of marking and crossfire.

cardre fireblades. 25 points for +1 in FF is pretty good. but why take it when they can shoot the crap out of something instead of taking the risk in an assault and also losing stuff. they are better at shooting.

if you make it 1:2 ratio then there should be a cheaper option like 6 fire warriors on foot.

Supremacys, solid unit. Templates are great for making people spread out. spreading out is great for clipping assaults. are tau great at assaulting? sure clipping with a cadre fireblade. whos gona put themselves in the potition for it? usually youd have to march to set it up or double with mech FW. but why go to all that trouble when you could just shoot and less risk. Also what army dosnt have access to air assault or teleports? Supremacys arnt that great in an assault and arnt fearless. Also take away the guided missiles. 2 GM and a blast is to much for a sustained fire.

Drop the sun shark bombers. why? nearly every other army has access to a bomber. Hell Talons the same price, are just as good and in a high strat rating army.


I do agree with the orca deflector. you cant give them a 5+ invulnerable and not go up in points.

You dont have to agree or take any of it on board. it is just my 2 cents

EDIT: just on that spreading out i want to give an example. Playing mic at cancon i was worried a out him assaulting my riptides with sprears so i kept them huddled toģether so i could get them all in FF if he did which ultimately let his night spinners touch all with a template hit all and get a crit through. Single template was amazing. If there was no assault threat he would have hitting 1 with it which change the odds dramatically.

This is the main reason i keep fighting for it to be less then a void without the GMs. Strat 4 plus the reason above.

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.8a
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 9:38 am 
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Beefcake4000 wrote:
I'll admit I'm disappointed to see a bump to supremacy suits points value. I cant help but point at void spinners that are 275 with similar stats except they get disrupt and skimmer in an army with higher strategy... Can we bump to 275 and get those stats please! 250 seems like poor value compared to what Eldar have.


Quote:
Gona agree that against void spinners for 275 and approved voids are better. Odds are they are going first. Disrupt is so good against non fearless broken stuff. Plus being about to march 75 onto an objective over terrain is a massive help if something dosnt go to plan.


Sorry, it's going up to 250pts as is, and definitely not getting disrupt. Disrupt is simply one of the very best rules in the game, and it's not given out lightly :D
IMHO the Supremacy will still be worth taking.



atension wrote:
My mistake on the 1+. My rule print out got a little muddled and I could see it mentioned the WE battle suits but there was some detail loss, I just assumed it applied to them all. Is the 2+ intensional on the Supremacy? Seems odd that it would apply to only 2 of the 3 of the similar type WEs.


The 2+ is intentional, primarily for balance reasons.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.8a
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 9:39 am 
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Borka wrote:
Matt-Shadowlord wrote:


Bringing things in line with Tau 3rd Phase
[] Manta - no self planetfall rule
[] Skyray FF 5+


Just to clarify I assume it will have regular planetfall instead, like the original list, right? I plan to play a manta in a coming tournament and it becomes a bit pointless without any planetfall capabillities.


Correct, it will have regular planetfall.

Quote:
Sun Bomber have barrage capabilities which was never the theme of the Tau (Tau were designed to have lots of direct fire capability and no barrage capability). Additionally this unit does not take into consideration the multiplier effect of markerlights on its capabilities and points.


GW have developed Tau over the years, so they do have more template and barrage capabilities.
Regarding your concern about markerlight synergy, it's a valid concern but this should be covered in the list's special rules 'Voir'la Tau Barrage Weapons do not benefit from bonus to-hit effect of markerlights.'


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.8a
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 12:44 am 
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Norto, personally I agree that the cheaper recons is not an all out boost as 6 is a more efficient number and you're getting it for the 25/unit cost. I think this is sometimes a boost, sometimes not. In my regular lost this would probably net me an extra activation though as I tend to take 4x recon.

Think sun shark bombers are suggested to remove because tau already had two tigershark bomber type units, which have models.

What I'm hearing about cadre fireblade is it's superfluous in a shooting focused formation and can therefore be removed? Personally I do think it's a very useful option as I quite frequently benefit from the flexibility and threat of shooting formations that can also assault (eg falcons) and vice versa. Shooting is less decisive than assaults, whilst also being more susceptible to random chance (you can't be +4 on kills before you even begin). So it's much harder to do a lot of damage. And people do seem to take the fireblade option, so there's that.

Not sure what you're asking about teleports and air assaults. Tau do have teleporters already, and quite a few formations don't have air assaults - steel legion being the obvious one (which is also a shooting focused list) and most guard armies in fact, but also Tyranids, some ork and chaos lists, squats etc.

On supremacy, don't think anyone is doubting that barrage is awesome, that was a good reason for tau not to have it :) Clipping is one reason but for tau possibly a greater benefit is that it's much harder for the enemy to stay out of sight and entirely in cover if they need to spread out. That one unit fills a gaping hole for sure.

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