First aspect discussion topic.

Please use this thread to comment on the number and type of units available to the Tau in EA. A couple of points:

- This is not for discussion of force structure, I will open an additional thread for this. This includes the number of options to a Tau player, selecting one unit of a list, etc.

- As a guideline, assume that any unit used can be balanced within the force (somehow, and eventually). If we do find that a unit simply cannot be balanced then we may be forced to remove it, but that is outside of this discussion which focusses on an 'ideal situation'. Therefore, this is about those units which either do not fit the army list, which overlap too much with other units in terms of role, or which should be kept for potential (but not guaranteed) future variant lists.

- I am open to the use of non-canon and unofficial units. So, 'it is not an official GW unit' is not reason enough to drop a unit.

- This thread can be used both to discuss units which should be dropped, and units which could be added (but there will need to be a very good reason to add anything to the list).

- This discussion assumes that units discussed exist in the list, but not necessarily in a core way. If you think that a unit has a place but should be restricted to 'section 6' non-tournament lists, please do say this.

I am aware that there is a significant crossover with this discussion aspect, and that of general force list structure. Therefore, I will open discussion on structure very shortly as a parallel development discussion.

Thanks.

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UNIT: TAU MORAY ASSAULT SHIP
My opinion: Down-power, or remove from the list for insertion into a later 'armour-themed' list.
Rationale: This unit reinforces the NetEA Tau list's "Semi-Static Gunline" style, reducing the emphasis on the more fluid style that typifies the Tau in the background/Warhammer 40,000.


UNIT: TAU SCORPIONFISH
My opinion: Remove from the list for insertion into a later 'armour-themed' list.
Rationale: Swarms of guided missiles as fired by this unit simply do not occur in mainstream Tau background texts, although this is plainly a unit that is really useful to the army, it is hurtful to its *Tau* character; As with the Moray, this unit tends to reinforce the "Gunline" style.


UNIT: TAU MARKERLIGHT SENTRY DRONE
My opinion: Remove the special rule, or move the unit to Section 6.
Rationale: The markerlight's special deployment rule is causing a huge ammount of problems. Making it simply a normal unit (Without Scout or Fearless, as has been proposed) in a formation of 6 drones, which could garrison, might give a better feel to the unit.


UNIT: TAU DRONE SENTRY TURRET(S)
My opinion: Allow them in 'Sentry Drone' formations.
Rationale: This would help make Drone Sentries an integrated part of the army list, instead of an awkward add-on.


UNIT: TAU MANTA MISSILE DESTROYER
My opinion: Down-power it and decrease points cost.
Rationale: This unit currently fails to match the background. In the background it is a super-heavy transport with the firepower to defend itself, and take on a Warhound-sized Titan with confidence (A Reaver-sized Titan would beat it); The NetEA Manta can take on a Warlord-sized Titan with confidence, and can self-planetfall anywhere on the board without need for a Space Ship. It is much too good in stats as compared to its abilities in the background, regardless of its in-game balance.


UNIT: TAU ORCA
My opinion: Remove this aircraft's Guided Missile weapon. Denote burst cannons as 'Orca Burst Cannons'.
Rationale: Orcas are a transport craft, they do not carry Guided Missiles. Also, delete note about objective capture conditions. Other aircraft should lose the AA attack from their burst cannons for balance reasons.


UNIT: TAU BARRACUDA
My opinion: Remove the Guided Missile attack. Possibly change armour save to -none- Possibly drop the AA attack from the Burst Cannon.
Rationale: The unit is a little too good and the guided missiles don't come as standard with the aircraft in Warhammer 40,000; Its armour is supposed to be worse than that of a Thunderbolt fighter. It is probably too good at AA.


UNIT: TAU TIGERSHARK
My opinion: Drop the AA attack from the burst cannons.
Rationale: It is much too good at AA.


UNIT: TAU TIGERSHARK AX-1-0
My opinion: Drop the AA attack from the burst cannons.
Rationale: To fall in line with the other airborne burst cannons.



TRC has some very good opinions on the Tau aircraft, IIRC, which are probably better than mine.



UNIT: VESPID STRAIN LEADER
My opinion: Remove and replace with a character Upgrade.
Rationale: Unless you want to change its basic stats to be different to other Vespid units, that's simply how it should be done.


UNIT: TAU STINGRAY
My opinion: Remove from the list for insertion into a later 'armour-themed' list.
Rationale: This unit (Along with the Scorpionfish) helps reinforce the 'Gunline' style. With these units in the list, you do not need Fire Warriors.


UNIT: TAU SWORDFISH
My opinion: Remove from the list for insertion into a later 'armour-themed' list.
Rationale: Regardless of how cool an idea this tank is, it doesn't belong in the 'standard' Tau army list. Missile barges/tanks can just about be justified as they'd hardly ever be seen by the enemy army... an entirely new main battle tank which reinforces the 'gunline' style (Rather than the shoot-and-scoot style that a Fusion Cannon Hammerhead would incentivise) cannot be justified.


UNIT: TAU HAMMERHEAD
My opinion: Add the Fusion Cannon (30cm, MW4+) turret to the available list of weapons.
Rationale: A short-range powerful weapon reinforces the Tau as an army that needs to manuever to hit the enemy, rather than stay at maximum range at all times.


UNIT: TAU ETHEREAL
My opinion: Add Inspiring
Rationale: These guys are the very definition of Inspiring to the Tau troops.


UNIT: SHAS'O COMMANDER
My opinion: Delete Tau Supreme Commander Special Rule, incorporate into notes.
Rationale: Check the wording in the Forgeworld Tau army list, it doesn't need a Special Rule.




*Phew*

Overall rationale:

The NetEA / SG Tau army list is *frustrating* to play against; I looked at the list with the intention to provide a set of units which were more fun to play against... a set of units that would reward tactical manuever, and punish players who kept their army still for most of the game whilst bombing the enemy into oblivion with Guided Missiles or 'No LOF'/'Largely unrestricted LOF' weapons platforms.

I've asked that the four long-range tanks / missile barges that reinforce the 'gunline' style be moved to a variant 'armoured warfare' Tau army list.

I'm sure that if such a variant list were created, it would prove very popular, perhaps even moreso than the 'core' army list, and would be very healthy for the Tau in Epic as a whole.

I've also asked that some shorter-ranged powerful weapons/systems be added to the list, such as Gun Turrets and Fusion Cannon Hammerheads, so as to help drive the Tau army more in a 'short range ultra powerful shooting' direction, and away from the 'gunline' style.

Cheers for now.

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UNIT: TAU MORAY ASSAULT SHIP
Down-grade the firepower by reducing the range on the rail guns to 45cm (but definately keeping 2 guns). Ion Cannons to be reduced in range aswell. Leave Support Craft rule as is to balance the shorter range weapons.
This would force the Moray to maneuver (closer to the enemy) to fire and would certainly break up the reliance on gun-line complaint.
I wouldn't want to see the Moray just become a hovering Shadowsword.

UNIT: TAU MARKERLIGHT SENTRY DRONE TURRET
Make it a normal unit (With Scout & Fearless but no ZOC) in a formation of 3 drones, which could garrison. Recuce the Armour Save to 6+.
This option is much more preferable to Section 6.
These units would now form a second line (or back-up) of ML's behind the Pathfinders, Tetras, Heavy Drones & Stealthsuits (which will undoubtably be targeted early) rather than a frontline way to target the enemies DZ (which seems like a large part of the complaints at the moment).

UNIT: TAU MANTA MISSILE DESTROYER
Replace Self Planetfall with the standard Planetfall rules. Simple and still portrays the Manta's abilities.
*EDIT - Reduce weapon range in accordance with the Moray suggestion (maybe 60cm for the Heavy Rails). Certainly, they should keep 2xTK shots. This will help balance the firepower and bring the unit closer to the enemy. The Tau really do have a need for a reliable Titan of their own and I think this is a close as they can get.

UNIT: TAU ORCA
Remove the Guided Missile attack. Reduce the combat effectivness of this transport.

Unit: TAU DRONES
Make Standard Drones only available as an upgrade (which don't give Blast Markers when destroyed).
Keep Heavy Drones available as a Support Group but take BM's normally if in a formation on their own (no BM's when used as an upgrade).

Unit: TAU XV8 CRISIS BATTLESUIT
Increase MW 15cm attack to 3+. Add MW to FF. Replace Tau Jet Pack rule with Hit and Run for simplicity and usability. Points increase?

I don't want to see a change to Hammerheads and Swordfish. Trying to force HH's to within 30cm's of the enemy is a one way trip.

I also do not want to see Stingrays, and Scorpionfish removed from the list. They are very useful. As mentioned above, they create the need for the Markerlight units in the army and therefore a distinctive Tau feel (reliance on other parts of the army for maximum effectivness).

I also believe a down-grade in the Tau aircraft is in order (along with a points cost adjustment). I don't mind TRC's proposals in the link Hena gave.
All formation sizes should be kept the same (or be flexible enough to be the same) to account for all those who have already gone out and bought FW models (Baracudas spring to mind - I bought 2 sets and converted the spare one to an objective).

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I don't want to see a change to Hammerheads and Swordfish. Trying to force HH's to within 30cm's of the enemy is a one way trip.

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As an addition to the list it's a fine option (ie not a replacement for the Swordfish/Scorpionfish).
Trying to force HH's to Close range as a solution to supposed Tau firepower imbalances is not a fine option.

I don't really want to post more of this repeated banter in this thread. I think it should just be left to peoples ideas and reasons.

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I believe it is a good option if it stops the list from being irritating to play against (Ie: Lessens the emphasis on gunline 'tactics', and increases the need for tactical manuever), and the SG/NetEA army list style is full of 'gunline' type units, all of which have been invented with the specific purpose of making the Tau more gunline-esque.

All four of the SG-invented tanks increase the gunline emphasis:

- Scorpionfish (Hide behind cover, shell you with 6x AP3+ ignore cover Guided Missiles).
- Stingray (Again, AP3+ ignore cover Guided Missiles)
- Swordfish (Very long-ranged superb AT fire)
- Moray (Very long-ranged multi-TK or AP/AT massed firepower; APU Skimmer or Support Craft provides the ability to hit the enemy whilst remaining distant)

Do any of those units above incentivise the Tau to close to 30cm range and deliver their supposed hellish short-ranged firepower?



Edit to your quote by me.

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UNIT: TAU MORAY ASSAULT SHIP
My opinion: No change
Rationale: This unit is expensive, but is balanced by the power it provides and the fact that it is vulnerable to any unit which can see it...which is all of them.


UNIT: TAU SCORPIONFISH
My opinion: No change
Rationale: A characterful unit that is hinted at in IA3: Taros campaign. The unit itself is a natural progression for Tau warfare theory

UNIT: TAU MARKERLIGHT SENTRY DRONE
My opinion: I am abmivalent on this
Rationale: This is the unit that I created and viewed as a simple extension of the markerlight capability that was present at the time. I think the simplest approach would be to either prevent it from deploying in the opponent's deployment zone or remove it entirely. It has generated entirely too much discussion for the impact it has on the list.


UNIT: TAU DRONE SENTRY TURRET(S)
My opinion: Allow them
Rationale: They should be developed as some sort of garrisoning force as portrayed in IA3.

UNIT: TAU MANTA MISSILE DESTROYER
My opinion: Decrease points cost.
Rationale: Nobody takes these, they are too expensive for what they provide. Give them the self planet fall rule (or equivalent), give them nasty guns (because they have them, and let them transport formations.

UNIT: TAU ORCA
My opinion: No change other than preventing the last turn objective capture. Also allowing one per core formation seems reasonable.



UNIT: TAU BARRACUDA
My opinion: No change


UNIT: TAU TIGERSHARK
My opinion: No change

UNIT: TAU TIGERSHARK AX-1-0
My opinion: No change



UNIT: VESPID STRAIN LEADER
My opinion: Remove all Vespids

UNIT: TAU STINGRAY
My opinion: Preferred the 2 x Missile attack and felt that the balance to the high firepower was their vulnerability

UNIT: TAU SWORDFISH
My opinion: I never really liked this unit. It just didn't seem to add any value to a HH formation.

UNIT: TAU HAMMERHEAD
My opinion: No change from the 4.4.0 list

UNIT: TAU ETHEREAL
My opinion: Add Inspiring
Rationale: These guys are the very definition of Inspiring to the Tau troops.

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A mobile Orca Bomber is referenced. There is no reference to a static missile barge.


UNIT: TAU MANTA MISSILE DESTROYER
My opinion: Decrease points cost.
Rationale: Nobody takes these, they are too expensive for what they provide. Give them the self planet fall rule (or equivalent), give them nasty guns (because they have them, and let them transport formations.

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E&C - Are you really going to come on here and just pick everyones posts apart?

Please forgive me if this seems rude mate, but people are allowed to have their opinion on the Tau.

You could just let everyone have their say and then trust CS to take all points of view into account.

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Agreed, we have plenty of other threads for that discussion, let's keep this one solely for people to put forward their unit visions.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

In general most units should have awesome firepower, but with limitations. It should mostly be either short ranged death or require other units to get close to work (GM/ML).

UNIT: TAU MORAY ASSAULT SHIP
My opinion: Ideally remove to section 6, but since that's not going to happen, reduce the range on the main guns to 45cm max, and change to always popped up.
Rationale: This unit reinforces the NetEA Tau list's "Semi-Static Gunline" style, reducing the emphasis on the more fluid style that typifies the Tau in the background/Warhammer 40,000. Reducing the range makes it more of a challenge to use, less point and click, as does allowing units to take cover due to APU. Posisble price drop once tested with these changes.


UNIT: TAU SCORPIONFISH
My opinion: Ideally remove to section 6, else balance by removing the "unguided" firing mode.
Rationale: As with most GM units, it leads to the gunline style of play. Requiring markerlights to fire GMs (which is correct background-wise) would reduce this by getting other units to do the manouvering, which is the height of Tau synergy.


UNIT: TAU MARKERLIGHT SENTRY DRONE
My opinion: Remove entirely., or to section 6 at the very least!
Rationale: I have `big issues with the mere existence of this unit. To me it just screams out for removal. not only are they unfair to the opposition, cheap and unbreakable, they also ruin the game-style and add unneccesary special rules. Please, please get rid of them.


UNIT: TAU MANTA MISSILE DESTROYER
My opinion: Down-power the guns and decrease points cost, lose free planetfall and switch to always-popped-up
Rationale: It's supposed to be a transport with guns, not a gunboat with transport. APU for fairness and consistency. Lose free planetfall for one simple reason: Does it make any sense that Mantas should planetfall every battle? Surely they will usually be flying to the battle from the same planet rather than from space?


UNIT: TAU ORCA
My opinion: Remove this aircraft's Guided Missile weapon. Denote burst cannons as 'Orca Burst Cannons'.
Rationale: Transport, not gunboat. Too much AA on a spammable unit, lose it.

I'd go with TRC's aircraft opinions in the mostpart, they're about right.

UNIT: VESPID STRAIN LEADER / VESPID STINGWINGS
My opinion: Remove to section 6.
Rationale: No models, no easily available proxy, no real role in the list, against the "no assault" ethos, noone ever takes them anyway.

UNIT: FIRE WARRIORS
My opinion: Give them markerlights.
Rationale: If the turrets are lost (please!) and GMs are required to be ML to fire (please!), then adding ML to FW will make them much more worth taking, and more representative of their background role.


UNIT: TAU SWORDFISH
My opinion: Replace with one of the forgeworld HH varients.
Rationale: Why do we need a HH varient in the list that has no model, when there are 4 forgeworld HH varient models currently unused? This doesn't make all that much sense to me. Replace it with the MW4+ 30cm version, or any of the other ones with models.

UNIT: TAU ETHEREAL
My opinion: Add Inspiring
Rationale: FW do get in assaults, whether they want to or not, and Ethereals really do inspire them! Just another small tweak to make FW more worthwhile.


UNIT: SHAS'O COMMANDER
My opinion: Delete Tau Supreme Commander Special Rule, incorporate into notes.
Rationale: It doesn't need a Special Rule, a note is definately sufficient!

Unit: TAU XV8 CRISIS BATTLESUIT
My opinion: Increase MW 15cm attack to 3+. Replace Tau Jet Pack rule with Hit and Run. Points increase probably.
Rationale: A great way to emphasise the "short ranged death" of the Tau. Coming close for the Tau should be a case of risk vs reward, and hit and run will allow them to hopefully jump back to safety (without the annoyance of the current jetpack rule as well).

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

UNIT: TAU MORAY ASSAULT SHIP
My opinion: reduce the range on the main guns to 60cm max, and change to always popped up.
Rationale: If you reduce the weapons to 45cm and make it APU it's a sitting duck to every cowboy with a pop gun - making it very unappealing to take for its points. Giving it a respectable weapon range still forces it to move to fire but enemy can take cover from it. IMO this is a balanced compromise instead of the neutering that has been proposed.

UNIT: TAU SCORPIONFISH
My opinion: fine as is weapons-wise (adjusted my input as it was force structure based)
Rationale:

UNIT: TAU HAMMERHEAD
My opinion: Add the Fusion Cannon (30cm, MW4+) turret to the available list of weapons.
Rationale: A short-range powerful weapon reinforces the Tau as an army that needs to manuever to hit the enemy, rather than stay at maximum range at all times. It would also provide a nice support option to mechanised FWs.

UNIT: TAU GUN DRONES
My opinion: Make them expendable as a unit upgrade. 100 points for stand alone formation
Rationale: Fairer all-round IMO


UNIT: TAU MARKERLIGHT SENTRY DRONE
My opinion: Do as you will.
Rationale: I'm so very bored of the debate about these.


UNIT: TAU MANTA MISSILE DESTROYER
My opinion: Drop free planetfall.
Rationale: Not really a fair rule.


UNIT: TAU ORCA
My opinion: Remove the Guided Missile weapon.
Rationale: Transport, not gunboat. 1 AT/AP weapon is plenty and the burst cannon is minimal effect given this is a bomber so really only a defensive shooter AA-wise.


UNIT: TAU BARRACUDA/TIGERSHARKs
My opinion: TRCs stats seem fine.
Rationale: ease back their power somewhat.


UNIT: VESPID STRAIN LEADER / VESPID STINGWINGS
My opinion: Remove to section 6.
Rationale: No models, no easily available proxy. List doesn't need any new unit types.


UNIT: FIRE WARRIORS
My opinion: Leave as is.
Rationale: They work fine as is (unless we concede to make them FF4+    )


UNIT: TAU SWORDFISH
My opinion: remove to section 6.
Rationale: Unnecessary unit type


UNIT: TAU ETHEREAL
My opinion: Add Inspiring
Rationale: Seems odd that they aren't.


UNIT: SHAS'O COMMANDER
My opinion: Delete Tau Supreme Commander Special Rule, incorporate into notes.
Rationale: It doesn't need a Special Rule, a note is sufficient

Unit: TAU XV8 CRISIS BATTLESUIT
My opinion: Add MW back to FF.
Rationale: A great way to emphasise the "short ranged death" of the Tau. Coming close for the Tau should be a case of risk vs reward.

Sorry, Cybershadow repeatedly refers to this thread as a 'discussion' in his initial post.

I took that to mean that discussion was encouraged.

*shrug*

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I would like to agree with everything that Dobbsy proposes here and note that it pretty much agrees with Hena.

Other changes to aircraft as per TRC suggestions.

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