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Which stat line do you believe the Supremacy Suit should have for the Pulse Ordinance Multi Driver?
Poll ended at Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:46 am
60cm, 3BP, Indirect Fire, not effected by marker light 39%  39%  [ 7 ]
45cm, 4x AP4+/AT5+, Indirect Fire, Disrupt, may benefit from marker light 61%  61%  [ 11 ]
Total votes : 18

Supremacy Suit Pulse Ordinance Multi Driver options

 Post subject: Supremacy Suit Pulse Ordinance Multi Driver options
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:46 am 
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So I've heard from both sides on this issue: Folks who think the Supremacy suit should follow 40k and have a barrage template, and those who want to keep the stats inline with Epic Tau not having barrage templates. While this is not a guarantee that the list will go in the direction of the vote, I'm curious to see what the feeling is of the greater epic community.

We have two proposed stat lines in the poll in this thread. While there are details for each, we can test different specifics down the road. I'm mostly concerned about the issue of barrage or no barrage. For full disclosure, please keep in mind that in the Vior'la list, Sunshark bombers have access to a 2BP attack, and come with two bombers in a flight for a potential 4BP flier based attack.

Have at it and thanks for the feedback!

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 Post subject: Re: Supremacy Suit Pulse Ordinance Multi Driver options
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:23 am 
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m_folais wrote:
I am one of the no BP in epic Tau. It’s the way it is.


but it just isn't though..... saying 'thats the way it is' goes against what is clearly stated in 40k, both in rules and in background.....I'm pretty sure that the whole 'tau don't have barrage weapons' argument is based on the time when tau didn't have them, now with the advent of the supremacy suit they clearly do, which is yet another example of how the Tau adapt their style of warfare to face new threats....

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 Post subject: Re: Supremacy Suit Pulse Ordinance Multi Driver options
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:42 pm 
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kyussinchains wrote:
m_folais wrote:
I am one of the no BP in epic Tau. It’s the way it is.


but it just isn't though..... saying 'thats the way it is' goes against what is clearly stated in 40k, both in rules and in background.....I'm pretty sure that the whole 'tau don't have barrage weapons' argument is based on the time when tau didn't have them, now with the advent of the supremacy suit they clearly do, which is yet another example of how the Tau adapt their style of warfare to face new threats....


I stopped playing 40k in the beginning of 5th ed. I am sure your right. We all want the big new toys. Yet where 40k continued to mutate, epic remains frozen in time.
40k’s core design has changed how many times since the final edition of epic was released? 4 or 5. It is because of this continuous mutation suffered by 40k’s core design that allows for the changes to initial army play style. As the fundamental core or the way the game is play via core design/rules, changes to armies are required for balance. Which of of course is bullshit these changes occur so the GW can increase sale.

I see no reason to follow 40k. GW’s business model towards 40k should not effect Epic’s core design concepts.

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 Post subject: Re: Supremacy Suit Pulse Ordinance Multi Driver options
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:02 pm 
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kyussinchains wrote:
but it just isn't though..... saying 'thats the way it is' goes against what is clearly stated in 40k, both in rules and in background.....I'm pretty sure that the whole 'tau don't have barrage weapons' argument is based on the time when tau didn't have them, now with the advent of the supremacy suit they clearly do, which is yet another example of how the Tau adapt their style of warfare to face new threats....


Well 'its in 40k' isn't a good response either.

The requirement for adding abilities to a model or unit is that it is required by the game to make the unit a unique entry into the army list and make it something gamers will use and enjoy.

40K Tau are responding to a different set of in-game circumstances as well and therefore their requirements are different than in Epic.

Its one thing to say, 'The list can't deal with hordes of infantry can we get a BP weapon' but 'its in 40k' is not reflective of what an Epic unit/army might need.


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 Post subject: Re: Supremacy Suit Pulse Ordinance Multi Driver options
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:15 pm 
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but without following 40k, why are we even developing lists and including new 40k models in them? where do we draw the line?

I've got no issues with game balance trumping fluff, and I'll bang that drum forever, but when developing a modern style Tau list, partly because the 3rd sphere list just looks so old compared what modern 40k players use, we have to look at what is happening currently in 40k for direction surely?

From a gameplay and balance POV most experience seems to be that the BP version of the multi driver is maybe slightly sub-par for the points, it's certainly not winning games by itself, so the argument then really comes down to the fluff/background, and in that arena are those who say 'Tau should not have BP weapons, because it used to be the case that they didn't have them' and those who say 'but both in fluff/background AND modern 40k, now they do'

I've played half a dozen test games using the supremacy suit as an artillery piece, it's never been flagged as remotely OP by my opponents, and I'm struggling to see why it's such a sticking point for some....

I haven't played 40k since 2nd edition, I literally could not care less about it, but I can't see the sense in making a new modern-style Tau list, but then trying to fit that into a 10 year old framework to keep pace with background and rules from 10 years ago

And without wanting to be dismissive, the 3rd sphere list still exists for those who hark back to the good ol' days, and there are two non-BP weapons available to the supremacy suit if you don't want barrages in your own Tau lists

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 Post subject: Re: Supremacy Suit Pulse Ordinance Multi Driver options
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:16 pm 
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I'm completely on the side of letting Tau have BP as long as it gamewise balanced, and I completely agree with what kyussinchains posted.

However, for me the current stat line of 3BP 60cm indirect fire feels a little subpar and bland, so I voted for the other version, just because it feels less wasteful for a 275 points body.


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 Post subject: Re: Supremacy Suit Pulse Ordinance Multi Driver options
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:04 pm 
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CarlixTomix wrote:
I'm completely on the side of letting Tau have BP as long as it gamewise balanced, and I completely agree with what kyussinchains posted.

However, for me the current stat line of 3BP 60cm indirect fire feels a little subpar and bland, so I voted for the other version, just because it feels less wasteful for a 275 points body.


What stat line would you like to see? What should the upgrade cost? How do you see the upgrade points cost effecting over all list structure?

If we do go BP, the upgrade cost theory was to be prohibitive, should it force the activation count down or remove a frequently taken upgrade? Or do you believe it should not create structural limitations?

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 Post subject: Re: Supremacy Suit Pulse Ordinance Multi Driver options
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:55 pm 
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Voted for the latter. Multiple guided warheads just feels more like T'au than an indiscriminate barrage.


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 Post subject: Re: Supremacy Suit Pulse Ordinance Multi Driver options
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:37 pm 
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m_folais wrote:
I stopped playing 40k in the beginning of 5th ed. I am sure your right. We all want the big new toys. Yet where 40k continued to mutate, epic remains frozen in time.


And that's a bad thing. A wargame which remains frozen in time will haemorrhage players until it dies. That's why new lists get developed. If Epic is truly frozen in time, then even having the Supremacy, Riptide and Stormsurge in Tau would be a no go. Besides, since Tau got introduced they've had blast weapons- the Hammerhead Railgun, the epitome of Tau ranged firepower, had a large blast template. The concept of shrapnel and barrages has not somehow evaded the grasp of the Tau.
I had a game this evening with the Supremacy POMD and nothing about it felt un-Tau. If anything, over-the-horizon strikes by superior firepower are incredibly Tau. Yes, part of that is represented by guided missiles, but some variety is nice.

Plus in game it's hardly broken. It's a useful tool but on a reasonably fragile platform without additional weapons barring seeker missiles.

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 Post subject: Re: Supremacy Suit Pulse Ordinance Multi Driver options
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:58 am 
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Well, there seems plenty of fairly firm opinion both ways.

I voted for the multiple shots option since it allows the use of Markerlights.
The image of a forward observer marking and controlling artillery fire makes
me very anti losing the use of Markerlight on blast template weapons. If
you get Markerlight troops within 30 cm to control indirect fire then it is a
bit counter intuitive that they can't improve the precision of the fire.

But for me the Nexus Missile option, 3 x MW5+, GM, does that job just
fine. So given the polarised results leave it in there, . . . ?


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 Post subject: Re: Supremacy Suit Pulse Ordinance Multi Driver options
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:59 am 
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I voted for the latter. I think it's probably equal in strength to the BP weapon with benefitting from MLs and disrupt against midsize formations and obviously weaker and stronger against large and small formations respectively due to a fixed number of attacks.

What the latter option can't do is hit the opponents deployment zone turn one. I generally dislike when one can do just that (some exception like steel legion are ok IMO, but as a general rule I think it should be avoided). In the case of Vior'la in particular it takes away from the theme of having to get close to the enemy.


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 Post subject: Re: Supremacy Suit Pulse Ordinance Multi Driver options
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:10 pm 
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Resa F wrote:
m_folais wrote:
I stopped playing 40k in the beginning of 5th ed. I am sure your right. We all want the big new toys. Yet where 40k continued to mutate, epic remains frozen in time.


And that's a bad thing. A wargame which remains frozen in time will haemorrhage players until it dies. That's why new lists get developed.


I must strongly disagree. Good rule sets will be in use for ever. One only needs to looks at historics. Fire and Fury has been around for light years. Along with command and colors. Warhammer ancients has a tourney at every Con. If your bleeding players or can not find anyone, that’s on you. I actively recruit players, offer demos, cold call dudes, email and call dudes to see if they are going to tourneys, convert my mates. It ain’t easy but it can be done.

New stuff and flashy toys is a business model. It’s a trick!

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 Post subject: Re: Supremacy Suit Pulse Ordinance Multi Driver options
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:29 pm 
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I think that the point revolves more about why it is seen so much that Tau need a barrage weapon in Epic but i never heard any reasons in that regard.

kyussinchains wrote:
m_folais wrote:
I am one of the no BP in epic Tau. It’s the way it is.


but it just isn't though..... saying 'thats the way it is' goes against what is clearly stated in 40k, both in rules and in background.....I'm pretty sure that the whole 'tau don't have barrage weapons' argument is based on the time when tau didn't have them, now with the advent of the supremacy suit they clearly do, which is yet another example of how the Tau adapt their style of warfare to face new threats....


But it is not in the actual WH40k either: A template in WH40k is not the same as a template in Epic as they are barrages of shoots spread over an area, not a single powerful explosion, even if it is indirect. If we were to follow that logic half the weapons in Epic would be barrages. Pulse Ordinance Multi Driver feels more like a mix between a 2xTK (1) and a 3-4x AP2+/AT2+ or MW3+.

Apart FW clearly states that it is a TK/MW one not a wide area weapon less a rapid-fire or a barrage weapon.
Quote:
Encountering increasing numbers of enemy heavy assault elements, from Imperial Knights to the towering alien monstrosities of the Tyranid Hive Fleets, T'au heavy flyers were often outclassed. Earth Caste engineer Fio'o Ke'lshan Sho'aun developed the KX139 to mount a dynamic yet stoic defence against such foes.

Armed with a pair of Tri-axis Ion Cannon and a Pulse Ordnance Multi-driver, this KX139 Ta'unar Supremacy Armour Battlesuit is ready to engage enemies at range and dominate the battlefield.


And even if looking at the rules, the more spread version of that weapon, is intended to kill infantry Death Stars or middle menaces in groups (Strength 8, AP 3 it has) which would be more like 3xMW, instead of big infantry groups. It has a template because of the size of the weapon it uses and that it causes an explosion instead of penetrative shots (would be like talking of HEAT or HESH ammo in real life terms which are used even in light cannons of short range tanks and sometimes in heavy rifles).

The only thing that changed in Tau is changed the usual Tau tactics for a more Guard/Squat static approach with big suits. So the question is, where did you see that the Supremacy and its weapons are for big infantry groups? It is a honest question, because i struggle to see where did you see that on the books i am looking at and i pass on reading again everything. So far, only the fact that it uses a template and has Ind Fire I can see, but there are others that do in WH40k and not in Epic.

kyussinchains wrote:
I've played half a dozen test games using the supremacy suit as an artillery piece, it's never been flagged as remotely OP by my opponents, and I'm struggling to see why it's such a sticking point for some....


Well, while it is not OP for the points, it is still one of the best artillery units in the game, if not the best, but that is a different issue.

And what is discussed recently mainly it is that it is an auto-take because it is an artillery unit in a race that does not have any. You say it yourself, you played half a dozen test games with it. How many have been played in the last three years WITHOUT it, at least reported on TacCom? I can account them with one hand.

CarlixTomix wrote:
I'm completely on the side of letting Tau have BP as long as it gamewise balanced, and I completely agree with what kyussinchains posted.

However, for me the current stat line of 3BP 60cm indirect fire feels a little subpar and bland, so I voted for the other version, just because it feels less wasteful for a 275 points body.


Not exactly. It has less power than the second option, indeed, but while i think that the power for the first option is right for the cost or even cheap, compared with almost any other artillery unit in the game, you have to take into account what it offers to a Tau list as it is a weapon that offers three things that Tau do not have (Ind Fire, template and alpha strike capability with no risks). Due to that and other motives that you can find in Matt-Shadowlord list's thread it was an auto-take in any game since it was added to the list 2-3 years ago.

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 Post subject: Re: Supremacy Suit Pulse Ordinance Multi Driver options
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:05 pm 
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The heavier suits have been difficult to pin down stats for, as we have seen with. Couple examples already. The KX139 is especially odd since by design, it defies tradition Tau style and doctrine. Instead of mobility, it's designed to be stationary, a defensive artillary piece rather than advancing aggressor.

For that reason, I've felt the BP fit the unit well. There's already a MW and TK options for the unit. The barrage captures the feel of a long range bombardment, not too different from a guard formation, and keeping with the concept of the unit's design. As Kyuss points out, part of the purpose of new lists is to develop new playstyles off of new units.

Abetillo raised great points as well. Although, I don't think there's anything wrong with a unit or two falling outside of the design of a list, especially when given it falls into the greater overall army style, I do agree the KV is almost an auto include. I think most lists will have these choices though. I also think that with the removal of barrage, the KV will remain a popular choice given the roll as long range fire/ blitz guard. I think the new proposed stat line actually makes the unit potentially stronger, especially if markerlights get brought into play.

Either way, I'm glad we're generating such a good discussion. I knew people had strong feelings on the unit, so I think its productive to have this community discussion on the unit, especially since we're split almost down the center for the vote!

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 Post subject: Re: Supremacy Suit Pulse Ordinance Multi Driver options
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:11 pm 
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Voted for Guided version, no BP. It seems very cool and very Tau: marking the target for the attack to come.

But I would remove Indirect Fire and add Guided Missiles. Otherwise it doesn't make much sense in a Tau list.

Resa F wrote:
m_folais wrote:
I stopped playing 40k in the beginning of 5th ed. I am sure your right. We all want the big new toys. Yet where 40k continued to mutate, epic remains frozen in time.


And that's a bad thing. A wargame which remains frozen in time will haemorrhage players until it dies. That's why new lists get developed. If Epic is truly frozen in time, then even having the Supremacy, Riptide and Stormsurge in Tau would be a no go. Besides, since Tau got introduced they've had blast weapons- the Hammerhead Railgun, the epitome of Tau ranged firepower, had a large blast template. The concept of shrapnel and barrages has not somehow evaded the grasp of the Tau.
I had a game this evening with the Supremacy POMD and nothing about it felt un-Tau. If anything, over-the-horizon strikes by superior firepower are incredibly Tau. Yes, part of that is represented by guided missiles, but some variety is nice.

Plus in game it's hardly broken. It's a useful tool but on a reasonably fragile platform without additional weapons barring seeker missiles.


Interesting point of view, I think the opposite. What kills a game is endless development. We would play way more if a finished version of the rules and lists were available and no more development.

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