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FAQ question concerning Overwatch

 Post subject: FAQ question concerning Overwatch
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:07 am 
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From the FAQ thread by Yme-Loc

Quote:
1. Guided missiles - suppression and crossfire

Guided missiles follow all the normal suppression rules. So if a unit with a guided missile weapon is in range and has LOF to a unit in the target formation then it is counted for suppression purposes. It is counted even if it cannot fire because for instance - the target is not marked, or an aircraft (note: unless landed, aircraft never count as marked).

Additionally guided missiles count as having LOF to all units in a marked formation for the purpose of suppression and crossfire.


About the last highlighted paragraph. How about for overwatch purposes? I mean does for example a skysweep formation on overwatch hanging back count as having LOF to every unit that walks into a markerlight (even if they don't themselves have a regular LOF)? And would they therefore be able to shoot overwatch fire at any such formation?

If the answer is yes they can shoot, then I think we should add overwatch fire to the end of the highlighted paragraph.

I had this come up in a game and my opponent found it a bit annoying. I assumed I was allowed to shoot.


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 Post subject: Re: FAQ question concerning Overwatch
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:40 am 
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Yes you can use overwatch fire, I will amend the FAQ.


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 Post subject: Re: FAQ question concerning Overwatch
PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:30 pm 
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Totally valid tactic, my favourite in fact. As much as I like to see new players' faces the first time it happens, it can feel annoying to get caught out so I always point it out as a possibility. e.g. an infantry unit wanders into markerlight LOF, and the guided missiles take out the vehicles behind the hill.


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 Post subject: Re: FAQ question concerning Overwatch
PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:21 pm 
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If you don't mind a minor tangent...

Why is that?

-Why- can markerlights effectively mark stuff they can't see? Isn't the guided missile mechanic there because it's being guided in by the markerlight? How do they mark stuff that's completely concealed and thus allow them to be hit by guided missiles? I must be missing something, because I'm failing to work out how that makes either sense or adds to the fun. It seems like it should be wrong/unfair.

Then again I still don't legitimately understand "clipping", so perhaps it's me...


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 Post subject: Re: FAQ question concerning Overwatch
PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:58 pm 
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There seems to be a misunderstanding here: Targets can only be markerlighted by unit with markerlight and a line of fire, which means they have to be seen.

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 Post subject: Re: FAQ question concerning Overwatch
PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 9:32 pm 
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Saukopfblende wrote:
There seems to be a misunderstanding here: Targets can only be markerlighted by unit with markerlight and a line of fire, which means they have to be seen.

I think what they are reffering to is that when one unit is seen by markerlights then that units whole formation is considered affected by markerlights. Not only the particular unit.

This means that units can be markerlit even if they are not seen by and in range of a markerlight, as long as at least one other unit from the same formation is.


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 Post subject: Re: FAQ question concerning Overwatch
PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:49 pm 
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Ah, ok, I see. Well, such rules sublety is too fiddly for my tastes. K.I.S.S., baby. ;D

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 Post subject: Re: FAQ question concerning Overwatch
PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:22 pm 
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Borka wrote:
Saukopfblende wrote:
There seems to be a misunderstanding here: Targets can only be markerlighted by unit with markerlight and a line of fire, which means they have to be seen.

I think what they are reffering to is that when one unit is seen by markerlights then that units whole formation is considered affected by markerlights. Not only the particular unit.

This means that units can be markerlit even if they are not seen by and in range of a markerlight, as long as at least one other unit from the same formation is.
Indeed yes. And to provide my take on answer to DK's question:

Firstly many things in Epic are abstracted - hit allocation is very loosely especially in assaults. The less counting and drawing lines the better. It is one of the most important feature of Epic, to stop it bogging down like 1st and 2nd ed.

Also, markerlights affects to hit values, so if units were marked individually you would still have the issue of units firing normal weapons on units they can see, only some of which are marked. You don't roll to hit specific units, so you'd be getting +1 to hit unmarked units. Which is equally illogical as guided missiles hitting units that aren't marked. Either that or, like cover, you can only hit the marked ones if you take the modifier, which makes it not very useful or potentially exploitable for sniping depending on the situation.

This, only needing 1 markerlight unit to mark a formation greatly expands the chances you get to use it, and makes it more important for your opponent to deal with them. If it worked by marking units individually, you would need more markerlights, and to put them in more dangerous positions, which would significantly reduce its impact and therefore diminish its contribution to the feel of the Tau in play. Tau are poor in assault, in an assault oriented game. The markerlights just about make them good.

But yeah, it's one of the many things in Epic that are a bit weird if you spend some time thinking on them.

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 Post subject: Re: FAQ question concerning Overwatch
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:28 am 
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Marker lights are kind of a screwed concept form the beginning. These are hard things to swallow as it makes an exception to a core rule shooting and challenges the ZOC concept.

Laser designators have a 3000+ meter range. They must paint what the missile hits. That is the whole point. In war-games we give up ground scale for playability. 3000 meters = 9000mm going off a marine being 2m tall?

Yet we measure from each unit and each unit must have LOS & range, except marker lights. Any unit painted in a detachment, they are all lit up.

Its fubar. It will piss ya off, but is the concept of marker lights game breaking?

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 Post subject: Re: FAQ question concerning Overwatch
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:30 am 
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Marker lights are kind of a screwed concept form the beginning. These are hard things to swallow as it makes an exception to a core rule shooting and challenges the ZOC concept.

Laser designators have a 3000+ meter range. They must paint what the missile hits. That is the whole point. In war-games we give up ground scale for playability. 3000 meters = 9000mm going off a marine being 2m tall?

Yet we measure from each unit and each unit must have LOS & range, except marker lights. Any unit painted in a detachment, they are all lit up.

Its fubar. It will piss ya off, but is the concept of marker lights game breaking?

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 Post subject: Re: FAQ question concerning Overwatch
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:15 pm 
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Kyrt wrote:
. . . many things in Epic are abstracted . . .


m_folais wrote:
Marker lights are kind of a screwed concept form the beginning. These are hard things to swallow as it makes an exception to a core rule shooting and challenges the ZOC concept.


Seems Markerlights are getting rather slandered here.
Every special characteristic provides exceptions to core rules.

And lots of things are abstracted. Just thinking about shooting
you have the whole hit allocation and range stretching. Most of
a formation is in range of one target except for one long range
weapon who makes everything else vulnerable. Markerlights
mostly the same.

m_folais wrote:
. . . but is the concept of marker lights game breaking?

For the Markerlights to work you have to put a relatively weak unit within 30 cm of the
target formation; within engagement range of almost every enemy formation going.
So you are vulnerable to a clipping assault that wipes out the rest of the Markerlight
formation that is hiding out of line of sight and line of fire behind blocking terrain.

Exactly the kind of "screwed concept"(?) that is inherently part of the core rules.
The Markerlight rule has the same spirit of abstraction.


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 Post subject: Re: FAQ question concerning Overwatch
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:13 pm 
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Yep it is abstracted, just like hit allocation, and in my view that is a good thing


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