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Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.8a

 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.8a
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 3:55 am 
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Sorry yeah just air assaults and teleports can take care of them easy.


Does anyone take the sun shark bombers. Seam alot of points for not much. Never ran them for this reason.


I like the viorla list because you can have totally different army lists from all the choices. If we take to much away there will be 1 or 2 builds that are any good and it will get boring.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.8a
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 6:25 am 
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So I was just thinking about this the other day, it seems to me like the sunsharks are in a some ways a better barrage option than the supremacy armour. Ok, you need to avoid CAP and AA but equally your not going to get pin point attacked or air assaulted and you get the extra template and increased chances of hitting whilst still effectively being able to fire indirect.

I don't really see how supremacy armour can be arguably OP at 250 but sunsharks not worth taking at, what is it? 200 points? I'm well out of practice though and may be missing something really obvious...


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.8a
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 8:11 am 
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Ooooops sorry i ment the tiger sharks. My tablet keeps crashing and i retype everything and make mistakes.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.8a
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 2:11 pm 
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Yeah well tiger shark are quite well known for being a bit unreliable! They're infamous for failing to activate or missing when you need them!

But it's about the only source of TK available to Tau - that's probably another can of worms right there!


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.8a
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 7:31 am 
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sorry again :P i ment the other one not the ax10 the ones will puss shooting and drone transport.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.8a
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 9:44 pm 
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Matt-Shadowlord wrote:
A new version of the list with a few tweaks made and a typos fixed will be available soon.


I thought I'd share some thoughts on the big suits with the above in mind. Perhaps to late to change this much, but anyways, I think it would be good to differentiate between the riptide and the stormsurge and make them more themed towards different roles. Basically I think the riptide should be more of a short ranged aggressive unit for breach duty and the storm surge as the support long range heavy hitter.

Riptide

They're described as a front line unit.

GW wrote:
As the massed Hammerheads and skyborne Mantas rained fire on the enemy line, the Riptides at the fore came under attack. Enemy shells exploded harmlessly off their armoured shells as each Riptide brought its arsenal to bear upon the defenders.
The heavy burst cannon, the Riptide's standard main armament, raked the walls, stitching patterns of death that cut Guardsmen in two. Missiles, from the Riptide's secondary weapon systems and from its accompanying Shielded Missile Drones, blazed outwards, leaving contrails as they streaked into the enemy's ranks.


As they are now, with 45 + 10cm (jet packs), they're more of a medium range unit that can often stay back and hide.

I've also looked at what the models are actually armed with in 40k and the options available. Our riptide now has one ion accelerator and two heavy burst cannons. The units can only have one of these weapons as it's the main weapon. We of course don't need to add every weapon and follow 40k slavishly, but having 3 main weapons seems a bit far from the actual models armament.

My suggestion would be to change the weapons load out for our epic units quite a bit.

Riptide
Nova charged heavy burst cannon 30 cm 2x AP4+/AT5+, lance
Missile drone 30 cm, AP5+/AT6+
Twin Fusion blasters 15 cm, MW 4+

I base the lance on the nova charged H. burst cannon having rending in 40k. The above would match with a weapons configuration the model can actually have. It makes for a quite powerful formation, 3 MW + 6 lance shots per formation, but requires the user to close up and play more aggressively. The units has the jet pack rule and have + 10 cm range which negates this drawback somewhat. The ion cannon goes away so the unit doesn't step into storm surge territory and as it should really be a 60/75cm weapon in epic.

Stormsurge

I suggest the following changes based on available weapons to the model.

Ion cannon, 75cm, MW3+ (unchanged)
4x Destroyer missiles, 60 cm, AT4+, one shot (maybe 5+ with ML in mind?)
Cluster rocket system, 45 cm, 3x AP5+ Perhaps 2x 4+ instead?
Twin smart missile system, 30 cm, AP4+, ignore cover

Maybe seem like a lot, but I don't think 4 weapon systems are unreasonalbe for a warengine (the unit actually has five in 40k) when hammerheads have 3 and it's described as a fire base. It's part of Tau design in epic to hav emore weapons than most. This would clearly make the stormsurge the longer range support suit and fire base like they're described. Probably keep that at two per formation.

The above would loose the unit it's current TK attack. A TK attack doesn't fit with the models small missiles or the 40k version of the missiles (4x St 8 Ap1 one use). I would reserve a TK attack for the KX 139 (se below) which also has an actual strength D attack. Combining that with moving the KX 139 Ta'unar to the warengine section would keep with Tau third phase design of having TK only available in the war engine/flier third.

I think it should also loose the Tau Deflector field rule. It doesn't have a shield in 40k and that would help differentiate more between the suits and also reinforce the stay at range support theme for the unit. Probably good for balance as well. I don't think long range unit like that in a strong shooting list should also be very resilient. (3+/5+ save is very strong)



KX 139 Ta'unar

I'll just quote my self from page 23 in this thread on the puls ordnance driver

Borka wrote:
...stuff...
I don't think the design really fits the background though.

"Larger than any other current battlesuit, the KX139 Ta’unar Supremacy Armour was designed to eliminate the increasing numbers of enemy heavy assault elements encountered by the Tau empire, from Imperial Knights to the towering alien monstrosities of the Tyranid Hive Fleets."

The Pulse ordnance multi-driver has dual firing modes in 40k. With one being more concentrated with a singel template and Strength D, AP 2 and then a less powerful multiple templates version with ignore cover, which I assume you based your stats on.
Perhaps we could give it dual modes in epic as well. Something like

current stats... OR
60 cm 3+ TK (1)

It would mimic 40k rules and offer the unit some chance of going after the big guys like the fluff says. Current stats with only BP + ignore cover makes it a hunter of guards, guardians and orks. ...


I'd also add the models secondary weapon (tri axis cannons) and loose the guided missiles since the model don't have any. Based on the 40k rules for the tri axis then I'd go with something approximately like this.

2x (has one on each arm) Tri Axis cannons, 60 cm, AP5+/AT4+

It's actually armed with 2x smart missile system and 2x burst cannon as well. But I don't think those are needed in epic as they wouldn't add anything to the units theme.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.8a
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 1:48 am 
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I have to admit my gut feeling has always been that the two larger suits didn't really match up to the stats/weapons/role of the 40k profiles but my 40k-fu is pretty weak these days...

It'd be good to get a second opinion on this stuff I reckon.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.8a
PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 7:07 pm 
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Roles: That's an interesting train of thought and something we could talk more about. What i don't agree is that we should be basing ourselves on the stuff GW does for units from WH40k/FW. We all know how little importance GW has been giving these last 15-20 years to make something that makes sense or is barely coherent, so we, for Epic, should use those miniatures, yes, but give them rules that make sense, in general, to Tau, and to Epic.

Also, if we were to do and for now always base on GW ideas, Riptides should be just bigger crisis suits ...

GW wrote:
XV104 Riptide is the pinnacle of the Earth caste’s battlesuit development. It stands twice as tall as the XV8 Crisis suit, but its movements are more like those of its smaller cousins than the mechanical stiffness displayed by Imperial walkers with their crude servo-motors.
(on the rest of the text doesn-t say more about its role or what it does so i passed on copying)

Which they already are but faster, so they end up playing in a similar style to less powerful Revenants. Borka, i think your idea of making them stay closer to the role is good, but as long they are faster than crisis for no reason a far i an see (and also in this game bigger is always slower) i don't think they'll achieve the role you aim to for them, so instead of lowering the weapon range, lower the speed to the crisis' level.


... and Supremacies bigger Stormsurges.

GW wrote:
the KV128 Stormsurge is designed as an extreme heavy-weapons platform. Not as manoeuvrable as a Riptide, instead relying on thick armour and devastating loadouts,

GW wrote:
Lacking the maneuverability of other battlesuits, the KX139 Ta’unar Supremacy Armour was designed for static defence, carrying massively destructive, long range weapons.

Encountering increasing numbers of enemy heavy assault elements, from Imperial Knights to the towering alien monstrosities of the Tyranid Hive Fleets, Tau heavy flyers were often outclassed. Earth Caste engineer Fio’o Ke’lshan Sho’aun developed the KX139 to mount a dynamic yet stoic defence against such foes.

So in Epic it would be both armed with a couple of MW or Lance weapons, and Supremacy for long range, and maybe TK for knights and similar, as there is no mention about them used to taking out infantry. I suppose it uses templates now (it is a recent change in this list) because in WH40k it does in one of its weapons, but it is a misunderstanding as anything big that isn't an energy ray, and even energy rays like Fire Prisms, will most of the time use a template at that scale but won't at Epic's. Another point is what is considered long range in Warhammer 40.000, which would end up probably around 60cm in Epic, more in line with other Tau weapons in Epic.


But as i said before if we base them on GW rules they'll end similar to each other, and given that the difference in size between the suits is small, the difference in role will be even smaller too. On the topic about size i would like to see an AV suit but that-s another issue.

----------

Leaving this aside, i think that when referring to roles the first thing we should question is the role they give to the army. Something i noticed, while i played games against Vior'La, compared when playing against Tau Third Phase, is that i felt that there is a big issue when it comes to roles: that this army plays like a ''jack of all armies''. I'll explain:

- When my opponent took Hammerheads, Stormsurges and Supremacies, the way the army played made me feel like i was playing against Steel Legion, staying back and basing the tactics on shooting from afar defensively with not even close as much focus on moving, use of low range fire, GMs, coordinated fires or markerlights for example, as Tau Third Phase does.
- When my opponent took Hammerheads, cadre Fireblade, Riptides and shielded Orcas, it felt like i was playing against Biel-Tan, with Aspect Warriors, and Revenants and Falcons appearing and dissapearing. Yes, i know that Tau Third Phase has some resemblances in play-style to Biel-Tan, in how they have to combine the efforts of several formations at once to achieve results, but that's what they share the most, and in this case they played way closer to Biel-Tan, not as a whole only but in the role of each new unit/option adds.
- Also, i still haven't encountered it, but i think they could play like codex SM, with the shielded orcas with cadre Fireblade FWs providing sturdy and powerful air assaults, plus Stealth suits with cadre Fireblade and other foramtions. The Orcas are in the 1/3 part here, but as they are so sturdy and only cost 150 points, one can make a very similar army easily and Tau Third Phase won't be even half as successful at that role.
- And if the opponent doesn't take many of the new options or don't take a single Supremacy (those long range artillery shots change the army's play-style A LOT, destroying the Tau flavour of the list completely for the reason others have told before so i won't go deep into that) it goes back to being a Tau army.

Which are the three main armies. It just need a new Orky option to complete all four original ones. Yes, Steel Legion, Biel-Tan and codex SM have others lists that play differently, but even Iyanden still has a similar main playstyle to other Eldar, Minerva like Steel Legion or White Scars like codex SM, or even Ferals like Ghazgkhull, that although they give lots of options on their lists, they play in a similar way, as even a META Ghazgkhull list has a similar style and characteristics to a shooty slow one with lots of Stompas and Gunzmobs. In these examples, the units are different so there are differences in playstyle, but the main play-style of each army is intact on those.

The feeling became bigger while playing, as in those times when the new options are taken, there is no room for more Tau units, so the list feels less and less like it plays like Tau.

Take into account that i am not against the options themselves, much more like the opposite as i mainly play with Orks in Epic, but when they make it possible to make an army look like one is playing with other few armies, that's a bad list design, and quite boring to booth. If one wants Steel Legion or Biel-Tan play-style, go and use that list, not create a new one.

So, what do you think about it?

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.8a
PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:13 am 
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Abetillo, I partially agree with you. GW may not have given importance to some aspects when they include new models in an army, but you have to think TAU is (compared to the mostfactions) a new born army one, they are still evolving (their background reflects that).
Including the new Tau toys has given us an oportunity to have an army with a slightly different playstyle (and of course, the opportunity to depoy some newawesome models... but this is just my opinion).
After having play some battles with this army, the most important difference I've seen is the possibility to fire a barrage. A lot of times I've felt my shooting isn't enough to compensate the lack of engage of my army, the use of artillery templates gives me some new opportunities to fight hordes.

On the other hand, I have to admit some minor changes should be done:
- KV128 Stormsurge should have a lesser speed stat, due their size and as they must deploy their anchors to fire at full capacity, maybe 15 shoul be correct (maybe also XV104 Riptide should have a lesser stat, 20 as Crisis suits?).
- Shielded Orca isn't necessary, regular Orca for 150 points is ok (giving them shields for no cost sounds too good).
- In my opinion, cadre fireblade should have some limitations, maybe only one per 1000 points. An abusive use of that upgrade would make the Tau a too strong assaulting force, not coherent with their ‘stand off’ nature.
- I'm anxiously waiting for the Ghostkeels in this army, stats should be similar to Stealth battlesuits values (Teleport), in this case we are speaking of an armoured or light vehicle, with MW or/and AT/AP weaponry.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.8a
PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:43 am 
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Quote:
- When my opponent took Hammerheads, Stormsurges and Supremacies, the way the army played made me feel like i was playing against Steel Legion, staying back and basing the tactics on shooting from afar defensively with not even close as much focus on moving, use of low range fire, GMs, coordinated fires or markerlights for example, as Tau Third Phase does.
- When my opponent took Hammerheads, cadre Fireblade, Riptides and shielded Orcas, it felt like i was playing against Biel-Tan, with Aspect Warriors, and Revenants and Falcons appearing and dissapearing. Yes, i know that Tau Third Phase has some resemblances in play-style to Biel-Tan, in how they have to combine the efforts of several formations at once to achieve results, but that's what they share the most, and in this case they played way closer to Biel-Tan, not as a whole only but in the role of each new unit/option adds.
- Also, i still haven't encountered it, but i think they could play like codex SM, with the shielded orcas with cadre Fireblade FWs providing sturdy and powerful air assaults, plus Stealth suits with cadre Fireblade and other foramtions. The Orcas are in the 1/3 part here, but as they are so sturdy and only cost 150 points, one can make a very similar army easily and Tau Third Phase won't be even half as successful at that role.


I value the feedback, and agree with some of it but not all. The part I agree with is that the Vior'la version of Tau are more versatile and thus able to make a larger variety of army builds - on purpose, to suit players who want to play more aggressively and away from their base line.
There is some definitely similarities with the armies you mentioned (Skyray vs Hydras/Firestorms, Crisis vs Aspects, Pathfinders vs Scouts/Rangers, Hammerheads vs Leman Russes/Fire Prisms, Supremacies vs Artillery, Orcas vs Vampires/Thunderhawks etc).

However, that's like saying Tau could run Steel Legion without shadowswords, deathstrikes, commissars and reinforced armour tanks etc, or like Eldar without move shoot move, triple activations, Avatars, Phantoms and full move consolidations, or like Marines without Strategy rating 1, chaplains, terminators or ATSKNF.

Sure, there are plenty of similar units as you'd expect in a game with a set amount of unit rules and stats, but differences like the ones above are very significant, and trying to play Vior'la like any of these other armies isn't a recipe for success.
Nor should it be. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.8a
PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:44 am 
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Update: Version 1.9 is having a final playtest today before it is posted on Taccomms. Watch this space.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.8a
PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:22 pm 
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Thank you, i'll be waiting eagerly for it.

Matt-Shadowlord wrote:
I value the feedback, and agree with some of it but not all. The part I agree with is that the Vior'la version of Tau are more versatile and thus able to make a larger variety of army builds - on purpose, to suit players who want to play more aggressively and away from their base line.


This is the main reason why i reported it, because you wanted a more aggressive Tau army. For example, with how Riptides, Supremacies and Stormsurges work now it breaks your image for the army, and can turn it into a not defensive but more defensive one, just by putting one or two of them in the list, no matter if used to stay back and shoot, to support the advance of the army, or any other tactic that uses them in their current form.
I thought that it was something some people proposed to you and you had nothing to do with it, so i should warn you and the list doesn't turn into something you don't want. But if you are fine with the list giving the option of being more defensive ... it is OK with me too.

Or is it that you did it on purpose to go according with the recent non Tau-ish change in the Tau fluff and tactics GW made to sell these big guys?

Matt-Shadowlord wrote:
There is some definitely similarities with the armies you mentioned (Skyray vs Hydras/Firestorms, Crisis vs Aspects, Pathfinders vs Scouts/Rangers, Hammerheads vs Leman Russes/Fire Prisms, Supremacies vs Artillery, Orcas vs Vampires/Thunderhawks etc).

However, that's like saying Tau could run Steel Legion without shadowswords, deathstrikes, commissars and reinforced armour tanks etc, or like Eldar without move shoot move, triple activations, Avatars, Phantoms and full move consolidations, or like Marines without Strategy rating 1, chaplains, terminators or ATSKNF.

Sure, there are plenty of similar units as you'd expect in a game with a set amount of unit rules and stats, but differences like the ones above are very significant, and trying to play Vior'la like any of these other armies isn't a recipe for success.
Nor should it be. :D


About the rest, excuse me, I should have explained myself better, as it ended up in that all of what i said was highly misunderstood: of course those units you mention are similar to others from other armies in their stats but that happens with every army out there, except some unique ones. The point i was trying to get through is not stats, the numbers being similar, that they play similar [not the same] to other armies [those way back were just examples], or the role they give to the army, but units that don't fit the strategy/role of the whole army and change it A LOT. To clarify I am not against a list having several builds [successfull or not that does not matter for what i am talking about] or lots of versatility, of course not.

What i was mentioning is that as a whole, the strategies one can use with a Vior'La list when taking those units i mention, changes the army so much that it barely or no longer plays or uses Tau general strategies, which doesn't happen in any other army variant as far as a i know. I am talking about general strategies: mainly static or low speed shooting [IG, Squats], swarm [Orks, Nids], sneaky and tricky [Eldar], precise and accurate attacks [Marines], not specific tactics like Eldar's sweep and triple retain, crossfire with Broadsided Orcas, Predators on Landing craft, and the like. Those armies have their general role/strategy, and any build one can do goes with it, even if it looks that it changed [Minerva when going heavy on Demolishers for example].


- An example similar to what happens here would be giving Orks long range and/or indirect fire units. They would no longer be playing like Orks at all, even thought the +2 on activations and that the rest of units and their stats are still the same.

On the opposite side is, for example:
- If the long range or Ind Fire weapons on Tau bigger walkers where GMs, they would still play like Tau both the units and the whole army as the army would need to move and press forwards and rely on close cooperation between formations.
- No matter how many Stompas i put on a Ghazghkull list, and how similar they are to Leman Russes, Minervan, Baran or Krieg tanks in their stats, they won't make this Ghazghkull list play like IG at all, because the strategy it would use would still be press forward [swarm] like with any other Ork build in any army. Similar to if relying on Gunzmobs.

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.8a
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 1:15 am 
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Abetillo wrote:
- If the long range or Ind Fire weapons on Tau bigger walkers where GMs, they would still play like Tau both the units and the whole army as the army would need to move and press forwards and rely on close cooperation between formations.

Quite like that actually. Prevents them from doing a simple alpha strike, they need to do something Tau-ish.

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