I think I might trial Wolf Scouts with this rule.... They're veterans and highly stealthy so it makes sense. I prefer not to have BMs on my troops when they assault.

See the issue...?

Yes.


They're initiative 1 already so have less need. Wolf Scouts sneak about with camoflaged cloaks on. Tau Stealth Suits make them invisible so you can look right through them and they have jetpacks so don't even leave footprints. I don't have a problem with them being better at getting into position.

A possible half way house could be to change the rule to be "A formation containing Stealth Battlesuit Teams that teleport may re-roll a single dice for determining if a blast marker is received." That gives them a better than before chance of not having a BM, but having one more than 1 game in 6 (my maths is too bad to calculate the chance of getting a BM with one re-roll, anyone else able to?). It adds more risk to adding Drones too, which otherwise are a no-brainer awesome upgrade for them.

A single re-roll makes it about 66% to pick up no BMs, up from 33%. But adding drones brings this down to 54%. This compares to terminators at 48% (which also have init 1+ of course).

TBH unless the figure is very high I would still consider them a gamble. Teleporting a 2+ initiative formation with anything more than an outside chance of picking up BMs just isn't something to be relied upon.

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Not really, if you go by that train of thought then you cannot add special rules anywhere. Its up to ACs not to do stupid things with the lists they have stewardship of not for ACs to worry how a rule could be abused elsewhere.
If you follow this you should take teleport of Wolf scouts as it might unbalance the Eldar list when Rangers need teleport etc

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Ok, I might have got my maths wrong here but I work it out as follows:

assumptions:
.83 chance of passing the test
.83 + (.83*.17) = .97 chance of passing the test when allowed to re-roll a one.

So for a unit of 6 the chance of getting no BMs with no re-rolls:
.83^6 = .33

with one re-roll:
(.83^6) + (.83^5 * .83 * .17 * 6) = .66

re-rolling all ones:
.97^6 = .83

and for a unit of 8:
.83^8 = .23
.83^8 + (.83^7 * .83 * .17 * 8 ) = .53
.97^8 = .78

Sorry if the maths is wrong - I'm never 100% sure that I get this kind of stuff right once it gets past something fairly simple. But basically, allowing one re-roll more than doubles the chance of getting no BMs leaving it pretty much 50/50 (once every other game) when drones are included and about 2 in 9 (once every 4.5 games, down from 1 in 6) without.

[Edit] I should add that this doesn't seem too awful although it is still a risk. Again forgive me if my maths is off, but doesn't that mean for a unit of 8 they have a 53% chance of activating 83% of the time and a 47% chance of activating 66% of the time so:

(.53*.83) + (.47*.66) = .75

so 75% chance of activating on the turn they come in as opposed to:

(.83 * .23) + (.66 * .77) = .70

chance with no re-rolls, but I guess the possibility of getting the BM may be more relevant?

Feel free to ignore all of this if my Maths is way off...

[Edit - my maths was in fact a bit off, but not by much!! Cheers Kyrt updated the figures...

You know that's hardly the same, Steve.

Going by that logic the stealth suit special rule can be used by any list....

Teleport is an established rule that any list can utilize as it's the same for every unit that has it. The problem is the introduction of the Stealth rule has a knock-on effect in the game. It flies in the face of what the Teleport rule is designed to do. Heck we can invent any rule we want but we don't. The implementation of a new, literally game-changing rule rather than simply give the Stealth suits 1+ initiative just doesn't seem right.

I do actually sympathise with this to a large extent. Despite it not always being desirable to follow the lead of 40k, both Crisis Suits and Stealth Suits come from the Elite slot in the 40k codex, in fact they are the only elite choices. I'm still not totally clear why one should benefit from 1+ initiative whilst the other doesn't. It certainly doesn't follow that if their initiative was increased Broadsides should follow...

I really need it spelled out to me like a noob what the big issue with this is that couldn't be fixed by a price increase if deemed necessary.

[Edit] Ok sorry, already had my explanation on page one - forget that. i would argue though that I'm not taking them for Markerlights, rather the BMs they can lay on a target with their AP3+ Disrupt. So the price comparison with recon formations and problem with bumping them to 250 or something is irrelevant to me. For me, their unique ability is to dump a bunch of BMs on a target and then jump into cover.

Not quite Alf, the failed dice isn't always the first one, it can be any of six (.83^5 * .83 * .17 * 6 = .33)

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Thanks Kyrt, updated the figures...

My head hurts after reading this...

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+1....

Maybe with the whole drone upgrade. They will be viable if the drones aren't subject to the teleport rule, except to appear with the unit. Might be unbalanced, but they would guided by the stealthsuits maybe, hence the only ones to test if they get 'lost'?

Also, for the record. I am pro Lance