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Knights

BlackLegion

Post subject: Knights

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 5:35 pm

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Posts: 8711
Location: Leipzig, Germany, Europe, Sol III, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster, Universe

As posted n the Knightworld thread:

In the AMTL armylist the are DC1 Warmachines. I understand this is to enable the Knights to use both their CC-weapon AND their FF-Shock Lances. But why not DC2? They are bigger than Stompas and only a bit smaller than Warhound Titans.

If i would make new stats for the Knights they would look so:

ShockLance: Gives Knight a +1 on the to-hit-number in CC if on Engage orders (so CC4+ would count as CC3+).
KnightShield: Threads TK-attacks as MW-attacks and MW-Attacks as AT-attacks. Not usable in CC and Crossfire.

A critical hit destroys the Knight.

Knight Paladin (400pts for 3, 150pts each if as upgrade)
Type Speed Armor CC FF
WE 20cm 4+ 3+ 4+
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
Battlecannon 75cm AP4+/AT4+
Heavy Chainsword BaseContact AssaultWeapon MW, EA(+1)
Notes: DC2, Walker, ReinforcedArmor, KnightShield, ShockLance

Knight Errant (400pts for 3, 150pts each if as upgrade)
Type Speed Armor CC FF
WE 20cm 4+ 4+ 5+
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
ThermalCannon 30cm MW4+ AND (15cm) SmallArms EA(+1),MW
PowerGauntlet BaseContact AssaultWeapon MW, EA(+1)
Notes: DC2, Walker, ReinforcedArmor, KnightShield, ShockLance

Knight Lancer (400pts for 3, 150pts each if as upgrade)
Type Speed Armor CC FF
WE 25cm 4+ 5+ 3+
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
Battlecannon 75cm AP4+/AT4+
Power Lance (15cm) SmallArms MW, EA(+1)
Notes: DC2, Walker, ReinforcedArmor, KnightShield, ShockLance

Knight Crusader (400pts for 3, 150pts each if as upgrade)
Type Speed Armor CC FF
WE 15cm 4+ 4+ 4+
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
Twin Lascannon 45cm AT4+
QuakeCannon 90cm MW2+, TK(1) Always places +1 BM on target formation
Notes: DC2, Walker, ReinforcedArmor, KnightShield, ThickRearArmor

Knight Castellan (400pts for 3, 150pts each if as upgrade)
Type Speed Armor CC FF
WE 15cm 4+ 4+ 4+
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
Twin Autocannon 45cm AP4+/AT5+
QuakeCannon 90cm MW2+, TK(1) Always places +1 BM on target formation
Notes: DC2, Walker, ReinforcedArmor, KnightShield, ThickRearArmor

Baron (150pts)
Type Speed Armor CC FF
WE 25cm 4+ 3+ 3+
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
Battlecannon 75cm AP4+/AT4+
Power Lance (15cm) SmallArms MW, EA(+1)
Notes: DC2, Walker, ReinforcedArmor, KnightShield, ShockLance, Commander, Inspiring, Fearless, ThickRearArmor

I see Knights as the equivalent to SuperHeavyTanks. Faster, but lighter built (DC2 instead of DC3). What they lack at firepower they have at CC- or FF-potential.

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Dwarf Supreme

Post subject: Knights

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 6:51 pm

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Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 8:45 pm
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Location: Canton, CT, USA

Not bad, BL. Did you mean for Crusaders and Castellans to cost 400 points? That seems low for three DC2 warmachines.

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BlackLegion

Post subject: Knights

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 7:13 pm

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Location: Leipzig, Germany, Europe, Sol III, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster, Universe

All my Knights are DC2. And yes 3 Knights of the same type for 400pts but perhabs 500 would fit better (same cost as a Super-heavy Tank Company).
I proposed 400pts at first because of the similarities with super-heavy tanks but the DC2 + KnightShield seems weaker than DC3 at the first gnace. Now i think i was wrong.

- Super-heavy Tanks have DC3.
- Knights have DC2 but the KnightShield.

- Super-heavy Tanks have a strong firepower
- Knights have depending of type a strong firepower (Crusader/Castellans), good firepower and good CC (Errant), weak firepower and strong FF (Lancer) or weak firepower and strong CC (Paladin).

Note that the Baneblade and Shadowsword will outshoot every Knight (the KnightShield has no effect on AT-shots and the D3 damage will remain on the VolcanoCannon even if it is downgraded to MW). Against this Knights have a better CC-value and most of them are faster.

I now think this would even it out.

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nealhunt

Post subject: Knights

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 8:06 pm

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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA

DC2 + Shield is substantially tougher than DC3.

====

One problem I just thought of...

The interaction with the revised hit allocation for multi-TK weapons and a knight shield or holo field gets convoluted.

Multi-TK shots count as being allocated the number of hits equal to the TK roll. However, if a knight shield or holofield saves against it a single time, it eliminates all damage. So, do you roll for multi-TK damage AND save in order to find out if the allocation should count as 1 hit or 2 or 3? If not, then you could roll 2 damage on the d3, count as 2 hits, and the knight could save them both with one save, while if the multi-TK rolled only a single point of damage, a second hit would be allocated to the knight before moving on.

Very weird.

This should have come up with something like the Revenant Titans, but I don't recall it being discussed. Up to now everything else is either a single target, so allocation doesn't matter, or DC1 so any hit uses up all the allocation capacity.

Anyone recall this coming up with Revenants?

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BlackLegion

Post subject: Knights

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 8:27 pm

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Location: Leipzig, Germany, Europe, Sol III, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster, Universe

Shouldn't this be in another thread?
I allocate the hit, make a saving throw (if allowed) roll the D3/D6 to see how much damage the hit does. If this destroyes the target only THEN i allocate the next hit to the next unit in the formation. Else the next hit will be on the same unit.
It would be silly to waste 3 TK(D6) shots on one Revenant Titan and only the 4th could be allocated to the other

Revenant...The Master-FAQ answers this:

Q: A formation of two Warhounds Titans is hit by two TK hits both of which do D6 TK Damage. Both of them hit do they;

1. Both hit the first Warhound (as it is DC3) and then roll 2d6 damage.

or

2. Roll the d6 damage and allocate the first 3 points to warhound 1 and any excess to Warhound 2?
A: The intent of the TK rule is that you allocate the hit, and then roll for multiple damage before allocating the next hit. Any model that suffers enough hits to destroy it is removed, with any excess hits being lost. In effect this means that a TK weapon rolls randomly to see how many hits it inflicts on a target, but can only hit a single target unit.

So in this instance you would allocate one TK to the first Warhound. If it survived (ie you rolled less than 3 points of TK damage) then you would allocate the second hit to the same Warhound. If the first Warhound was destroyed by the first TK hit then the second TK hit would be allocated to the second Warhound but any excess damage from the first hit would be lost.

Yes its weird, expecially if it collides with Holofields and InvulnerableSaves and both versions of the KnightShield (thr AMTL one and my version).
You have to stop thehit-allocation and have to make a saving throw for the WE to se eif it is destroyed and only then can move on to allocate hits to the next WE in the formation.

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Ilushia

Post subject: Knights

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 9:54 pm

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Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 10:50 am
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I believe the effect Neil is worried about is basically the same I would be:

A unit of 3 Knights gets hit by a pair of Deathstrikes. Deathstrike A hits Knight 1, rolls a 6 for damage. Deathstrike B hits Knight 2, rolls a 1 for damage. The result is both make a single armor save against the shot (I assume that's how the rule is meant to be read? The way it reads right now means that you wouldn't roll dice for hit-numbers at all, which makes Deathstrikes or Volcano Cannons largely worthless against them), this is simple.

But suppose you took an attack from 3 Shadowswords. 3 Shadowswords all hit, One shot goes into Knight 1 the question now is, how do you determine the spread of the remaining shots? Do you A: Roll the save for that first shot, if it's saved count it as a non-damage and apply shot 2, if it's not saved roll the D3, on a 1 apply Shot 2 to the same one. B: Roll the D3 first, if it's a 1 apply Shot 2 as well, if it's a 2 or 3 apply Shot 2 to Knight 2 but each still only takes 1 save against the attack.

My suggestion would be to use something closer to the Deflector Shields from the Tau list.

"Knight Shields: Any time a Knight is hit by a macroweapon or TK attack they gain a 4+ save against that attack in addition to any armor save they would have. In the case of TK weapons which inflict more then 1 damage, roll to save against each point of damage individually."

That makes it very clear that TK weapons still inflict multiple hits, that you get to roll 2 saves against MW attacks, but only 1 against each point of a TK attack, and TK weapons still function basically the same as they do against other super-heavy units.

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BlackLegion

Post subject: Knights

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:09 pm

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Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:13 am
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Location: Leipzig, Germany, Europe, Sol III, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster, Universe

And how would you apply this to Eldar Holofields?

For my version of the KnightShield i can imagine this:

KnightShield: TK-hits are threated as MW-hits and the Knight is able to make a savingthrow against each point of damage suffered instead of the inital hit only. Also MW-hits are threated as AT-hits. All this effects are not usable in CC and Crossfire.

EDIT: Oh and i hope my Knights will replace the ones in the AMTL armylist

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Ilushia

Post subject: Knights

Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 5:50 am

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Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 1189

The problem there is that if TK hits are treated as MW hits, then they don't inflict multiple hits with a single hit roll. After all, MW hits don't inflict multiple hits at once only TK do. This is the same problem that the Living Metal rule incurs in the Necrons list. It means that Deathstrikes will have an easier time killing a Warlord then a Knight, which seems completely and utterly wrong. With the way the rule I suggested is written the result is that the TK weapons remain TK weapons (Thus they'll still inflict multiple hits). For Eldar shields the way the rules work is simple: You roll for how many hits are inflicted, then roll a single save against them for your Holofield (The "Oops, you missed" effect, which nullifies the whole shot or fails to nullify any of it).

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nealhunt

Post subject: Knights

Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 5:09 pm

Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA

The FAQ (and the experimental TK hit allocation rule) are written as if multi-TK weapons always have the potential to do multiple points of damage. That is the case with normal DC, void shields and power fields. There is no armor save and each point of damage strips 1 shield/field. It's very obvious under those conditions what constitutes a "hit" for allocation purposes. Each damage = one "hit equivalent" for allocation purposes.

However, outright, "save it all" saves like the holofields break the assumption that you can do a pre-save damage count because the multi-damage die roll and the actual damage are not automatically the same.

Example: You hit a pair of Revenants with 3 TKd3 shots from a Shadowsword company and begin allocation.

You allocate the damage to the first titan and roll a "3" but the Revenant saves, completely negating the damage. Does that count as 3 hits allocated because you rolled a 3 on the dice and the rules say that points of damae = hit "equivalents"? Or 0 hits because there was 0 damage and the rule references points of damage? Or 1 hit because even though it was saved and there is no damage it seems rather silly to make it count not at all?

I don't think it's a huge deal regardless of the answer. I just have no clue as to how it would be implemented.

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Ilushia

Post subject: Knights

Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 1:03 am

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Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 10:50 am
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My understanding is that it would count as 3 "hits" due to the way that the rules are written, since you take into account the number of hits-done before reductions for void shields or the like. In the same way that a Warhound hit by a Volcano Cannon whcih rolls a 3 takes 2 Void Shields and 1 DC, but counts as having been hit 3 times so a second Volcano Cannon would have to go to the second Warhound if it's in a pack. At least, that's the way I'd play it, which may or may not be the intent of the original rules as written but seems like it'd be OK.

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semajnollissor

Post subject: Knights

Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 4:00 pm

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Location: Chattanooga, TN, USA

So, I?ve been thinking about how knights ought to be presented in the game, and about the pros and cons for WE vs AV and DC1 vs DC2.

What if, instead of being heavily armored 1DC WEs, they were moderately armored 2 DC WEs. This would make them less stout that the versions listed in the initial post of this thread, but would make them at least as survivable as a land raider or a stompa. At the same time they could be unique and flavorful, while not needing any fiddly new rules (except for the knight shield bit). Here?s what I have in mind, as a counter offer to BlackLegion's stats:

Knight Shield:
A Knight Shield provides a unit with special 5+ saving throw, which acts in the same way as the saving throw given by the Invulnerable Save ability, except that it may only be taken for hits suffered from ranged or firefight attacks. In addition, a unit with a Knight Shield gains a special -1 to-hit modifier that applies for all shooting attacks targeting the unit. This modifier can be combined with other to-hit modifiers as normal. The abilities conferred by the knight shield cannot be used for attacks that count as crossfiring, even though other effects of crossfire may still be ignored if a unit has thick rear armour.

Firing Arcs:
All knights are agile enough that they can fire their weapons in any direction, regardless of facing or firing arc.

Lancer
Type: WE
Speed: 30cm
Armour: 5+
CC: 4+
FF: 4+
Weapons:
Twin Autocannon: 45cm AP4+/AT5+
Shock Lance: (15cm) small arms, EA(+1), first strike, single shot
Power Lance: (15cm) small arms, EA(+1), first strike, MW
AND (base contact) assault weapon, EA(+1), first strike, MW
Notes: DC 2; Critical Hit: destroyed; Walker, Infiltrator, Knight Shield; titan stepping rules.

Errant
Type: WE
Speed: 25 cm
Armour: 4+
CC: 4+
FF: 4+
Weapons:
Shock Lance: (15cm) small arms, EA(+1), first strike, single shot
Power Gauntlet: (base contact) assault weapon, EA(+1), MW TK(1)
Thermal Lash: 30cm MW4+ TK(1)
AND (15cm) small arms, EA(+1), MW TK(1)
Notes: DC 2; Critical Hit: destroyed; Walker, Infiltrator, Knight Shield; titan stepping rules.

Paladin
Type: WE
Speed: 25 cm
Armour: 4+
CC: 4+
FF: 4+
Weapons:
Knight Cannon: 45cm AP5+/AT4+
Twin Autocannon: 45cm AP4+/AT5+
Shock Lance: (15cm) small arms, EA(+1), first strike, single shot
Heavy Chain Sword: (base contact) assault weapon, EA(+1)
Notes: DC 2; Critical Hit: destroyed; Walker, Infiltrator, Knight Shield; titan stepping rules.

Crusader
Type: WE
Speed: 20 cm
Armour: 5+
CC: 5+
FF: 4+
Weapons:
Crusader Cannon: 45cm 2 x AP4+/AT3+
Seige Gonne: 75cm 2 x MW4+
Notes: DC 2; Critical Hit: destroyed; Walker, Reinforced Armour, Thick Rear Armour, Knight Shield; titan stepping rules.

Castellan
Type: WE
Speed: 20 cm
Armour: 5+
CC: 5+
FF: 4+
Weapons:
Volley Gonne: 60cm BP2 disrupt
Seige Gonne: 75cm 2 x MW4+
Notes: DC 2; Critical Hit: destroyed; Walker, Reinforced Armour, Thick Rear Armour, Knight Shield; titan stepping rules.

Baron
Type: WE
Speed: 25 cm
Armour: 3+
CC: 3+
FF: 3+
Weapons:
Baron Cannon: 45cm AP4+/AT3+
Twin Autocannon: 45cm AP4+/AT5+
Shock Lance: (15cm) small arms, EA(+1), first strike, single shot
Power Lance: (15cm) small arms, EA(+1), first strike, MW
AND (base contact) assault weapon, EA(+1), first strike, MW
Notes: DC 2. Critical Hit: destroyed; Infiltrator, Inspiring, Leader, Commander, Fearless, Walker, Thick Rear Armour, Knight Shield; titan stepping rules.

Warden
Type: WE
Speed: 25 cm
Armour: 4+
CC: 5+
FF: 4+
Weapons:
Aerial Cannon: 45cm 3 x AP5+/AT6+/AA5+
Shock Lance: (15cm) small arms, EA(+1), first strike, single shot
Notes: DC 2; Critical Hit: destroyed; Walker, Infiltrator, Knight Shield; titan stepping rules.

Some thoughts:

Knights are WEs, so they can?t be barged aside be enemy WEs. That is equivalent to previous editions.

The frontline knights (paladins, lancers, errants) act in the same manner as cavalry (infiltrator special rule), and trade ranged firepower for assault ability.

The Knight Shield save acts exactly like the invulnerable save, so any rules clarifications need should be already in place.

I'm thinking the lancer and paladins should be 90-100 pts apiece, taken in formations of 6. Errants and Wardens would be formation upgrades. The Crusaders and Castellans would be 125-175 pts apiece in formations of 3.

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Ilushia

Post subject: Knights

Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 1:34 am

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Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 1189

Having actually fielded Knights a few times with the basic AMTL army list, I think the only complaint I've EVER had with their actual functionality in Epic at present is that the Knight Paladins don't move fast enough. They're much better in melee then at range, but with only a 20 cm movement and no Infiltrate or similar rule to help them engage better, it can be relatively hard to reach a position they can actually get to close combat. I'd be vastly happier with them if they moved to 25 cm. And, honestly, I think Knights Lancer would probably work fine at 25 cm as well, since they engage mostly in fire-fight moves rather then melee moves. Errants seem like the ones who really need the 30 cm move the most. They are almost entirely dependent on reaching close combat to kill things with a 3+ CC and 5+ FF. But I've only fielded them four times now (Three times with 2 units of 3, once with 2 units of 6). So my experience is limited. I've also only ever fielded Knights Paladin and Knights Lancer.

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