Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 148 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 ... 10  Next

Questoris Mechanicus (Developmental)

 Post subject: Re: Questoris Mechanicus v1.3 (experimental)
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:12 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 27, 2010 8:07 pm
Posts: 731
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Quote:
Also the Icarus Autocannon is a twin autocannon so should be 30cm AP4+/AT5+. Personally I'd give it AA5+ too, as it's limited enough by the low range already and it seems reasonable.


Quote:
GlynG is correct. We actually already have the Icarus autocannon in a basically ready for ERC approval chaos list (inappropriately titled Stalker autocannon but that's a fluff typo) . Use the existing stats as he outlines above.

edit: actually the Icarus autocannon has stats in an approved list. You need to use those.


You guys are confusing the Icarus Stormcannon (that the Stalker has) and the Icarus Twin Autocannon (that Knights walk around with).

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Icarus_Stormcannon

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Icarus_Autocannon

The Stalker has dual Icarus Stormcannons. I don't think the Icarus Twin Autocannon should automatically have the same stats.

I'd be OK with 30cm, AP4+/AT5+/AA6+ on it. I think it would be a mistake to make the Crusader config the main AA unit of the list.

_________________
AC for Traitor Titan Legion and Hive Fleet Dagon


Last edited by Mrdiealot on Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Questoris Mechanicus v1.3 (experimental)
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 11:22 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 27, 2010 8:07 pm
Posts: 731
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
GlynG wrote:
I just independently threw together some Armiger stats for a list and then saw you had some too. My interpretation is pretty similar though I think they should have a MW4+ attack - the stats for the Thermal Spear are identical to a Multi-Melta accept it has D3 shots rather than 1. Taking an average of 2 that would effectively make it the equivalent of a twin Multi-melta which is 15cm MW4+ in epic.


Well, we can try it out and see whether it becomes too good or not.

Quote:
Armigers should also definitely have scout given their background!


I've been thinking a bit about this, and I'm inclined to agree. Not so much because of their background, but because Knights need to be able to push out stuff from their deployment. With the huge size of the new Knights (and their huge bases) it's going to get real cramped in deployment.

Quote:
Why have you got Sentinels in the list? That's heavily inappropriate and un-thematic as an IG unit and Armigers as scouts covers the scout needs of the list perfectly well.


It's in the "Allies" section, so what is and isn't unthematic there can be a bit subjective. Don't know if you've noticed, but they don't have Scout either since they're the Armoured variant. What I like about the Armoured Sentinels is that they are a cheap and relatively uncomplicated formation that's easy to proxy. But maybe it would be better to find something from Mechanicus that could play the same role.

_________________
AC for Traitor Titan Legion and Hive Fleet Dagon


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Questoris Mechanicus v1.3 (experimental)
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:56 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:24 pm
Posts: 9624
Location: Manalapan, FL
You are the best kind of correct: absolutely :)

FYI I added 6 house colors of armigers to the Ad Mech Vassal extension today. Bet that will come in handy for the testing of this list.

_________________
He's a lawyer and a super-villian. That's like having a shark with a bazooka!

-I HAVE NO POINT
-Penal Legion-Fan list
-Help me make Whitescars not suck!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Questoris Mechanicus v1.3 (experimental)
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 1:00 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 27, 2010 8:07 pm
Posts: 731
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
jimmyzimms wrote:
FYI added 6 house colors of armigers to the Ad Mech Vassal extension today. Bet that will come in handy for the testing of this list.


Yeah, would be great to get some playtesting going. Should be able to put something together for Tabletop Simulator as well...

_________________
AC for Traitor Titan Legion and Hive Fleet Dagon


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Questoris Mechanicus v1.35 (experimental)
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 1:44 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 27, 2010 8:07 pm
Posts: 731
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Post updated

_________________
AC for Traitor Titan Legion and Hive Fleet Dagon


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Questoris Mechanicus v1.36 (experimental)
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:57 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 27, 2010 8:07 pm
Posts: 731
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Post updated to v1.36

_________________
AC for Traitor Titan Legion and Hive Fleet Dagon


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Questoris Mechanicus v1.36 (experimental)
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:46 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:30 pm
Posts: 4231
Location: Greenville, SC
Please note, I'm going back on my original plan for Armigers in the AMTL list and pulling them in with full stats rather than a name swap. HOWEVER... there are a couple of things I'd like to see... :)

First of all, I don't think that armigers warrant a full Knight Shield in epic. I think a 6++ save would be sufficient. Yes, I know this is a departure from the exact stats they have.

Second, I'd like to see a slight change on the two types of Armiger: Warglaves get Infiltrate to illustrate them performing swift flank attacks. Armiger: Helverins get the regular Scout. I think this would help give each a distinct role and could be fun.

_________________
-Vaaish


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Questoris Mechanicus v1.36 (experimental)
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:55 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 27, 2010 8:07 pm
Posts: 731
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Vaaish wrote:
First of all, I don't think that armigers warrant a full Knight Shield in epic. I think a 6++ save would be sufficient. Yes, I know this is a departure from the exact stats they have.

Second, I'd like to see a slight change on the two types of Armiger: Warglaves get Infiltrate to illustrate them performing swift flank attacks. Armiger: Helverins get the regular Scout. I think this would help give each a distinct role and could be fun.


Seems hard to motivate not giving them a Knight Shield since all the other Knights would have them. And I honestly think they'd would be too fragile without them.

So Warglaives would have 20cm, Infiltrate but no Scout? Might work. But with the different loadouts I think they would be pretty different already? And they would be the only infiltrating unit in the list, and would break consistency with the other unit that has the same "Armiger" platform.

The way I look at the two Armiger variants now, one is the durable "stand off" version that tries to stay out of trouble, while the other is much more in your face, and especially capable of giving supporting fire. There's also the issue that Knights will have very cramped deployment zones: If people are going to put each knight on the base it comes with in AT, then there's going be issues with making them fit.

For these reasons, I think giving the Warglaive different stats would make it the inferior option actually.

Curious to hear other people's opinion on this.

_________________
AC for Traitor Titan Legion and Hive Fleet Dagon


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Questoris Mechanicus v1.36 (experimental)
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:40 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:30 pm
Posts: 4231
Location: Greenville, SC
ah sorry, I meant both Armigers get a 6++ save instead of knight shield.
Stats for each don't change from what you have now for Helverion or Warglave

Warglave gets Infiltrate, Helverion gets scout.


The point for not giving them a knight shield is that they aren't true knights and I don't think Armigers should get access to saves vs TK weapons. We could do 5++ inv if you like or even do 4+ armor and 6++ save. In epic, I think it helps make them feel like smaller units than the knights themselves.

For the scout/ Infiltrate: Warglaves seem better suited to doing qick flanking attacks and driving enemies out of cover and I think that Infiltrate helps to solidify that because it reinforces their close range and assualt capabilities and rewards players for using them more aggressively. Helverions are geared more for keeping at range and screening the bigger knights so having scout on them makes sense for the role they'd play.

I don't think it's a huge thing if warglaves are the only infiltrating unit in the list. There's no law saying that there has to be more than one unit that can do it. I see infiltrate as less of a attribute of the platform and more of how a particular loadout or unit is used. To me it doesn't seem problematic that two armigers that are armed completely differently for different roles might have different specialist rules.

_________________
-Vaaish


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Questoris Mechanicus v1.36 (experimental)
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:12 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 27, 2010 8:07 pm
Posts: 731
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Quote:
The point for not giving them a knight shield is that they aren't true knights and I don't think Armigers should get access to saves vs TK weapons. We could do 5++ inv if you like or even do 4+ armor and 6++ save. In epic, I think it helps make them feel like smaller units than the knights themselves.


I still think they should have Knight shield for consistency (giving them an invulnerable save for example give them a better save against supporting fire or crossfire and would be just as good and in some cases better at stopping TK and MW hits).

But I had a look at the fluff for the Ion Shield, and they said it was really dependent on the skill of the operator since it's about deflecting the shots. So one way to do this would be to give them a 5+ Knight Shield. It feels like they're still worth 175 points after that though, so maybe they were a bit too good before.

Quote:
For the scout/ Infiltrate: Warglaves seem better suited to doing qick flanking attacks and driving enemies out of cover and I think that Infiltrate helps to solidify that because it reinforces their close range and assualt capabilities and rewards players for using them more aggressively. Helverions are geared more for keeping at range and screening the bigger knights so having scout on them makes sense for the role they'd play.


Quote:
I don't think it's a huge thing if warglaves are the only infiltrating unit in the list. There's no law saying that there has to be more than one unit that can do it. I see infiltrate as less of a attribute of the platform and more of how a particular loadout or unit is used. To me it doesn't seem problematic that two armigers that are armed completely differently for different roles might have different specialist rules.


You're right about the infiltrate thing, that's not really a solid argument. But like I said before, no other unit in the list has a separate profile from that of its class / platform, so separating the Armigers would be really inconsistent. And I still think that the stats overall would make it an inferior choice compared to the Helverin variant. They would be slower and much less able to grab objectives, and they would not have the opportunity to deploy as scouts (no first turn charges or supporting the scouting Cerastus Knights). And lastly, they will create trouble for Knights when they try to deploy.

_________________
AC for Traitor Titan Legion and Hive Fleet Dagon


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Questoris Mechanicus v1.36 (experimental)
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:35 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:30 pm
Posts: 4231
Location: Greenville, SC
Quote:
And I still think that the stats overall would make it an inferior choice compared to the Helverin variant. They would be slower and much less able to grab objectives, and they would not have the opportunity to deploy as scouts (no first turn charges or supporting the scouting Cerastus Knights). And lastly, they will create trouble for Knights when they try to deploy.


I'm really not following you here. Both would be 30cm speed and the EXACT same armor/cc/ff stats. Warglaves would be more competent at tagging broken formations or making quick attacks. So Warglaves could make a 60cm charge move which would mean they have less need of being deployed as garrisons.

I know that you've set up your datasheets to show one statline and different loadouts underneath for each, but in broader use, each variant would probably be it's own entry so having one Armiger with Ilfiltrate and one with Scout wouldn't be inconsistent.

Side note, but I don't think Cerastus Knights can deploy as garrisons even with Scout. They are still WE and I think that precludes them from being garrisoned regardless.

For clarity:

Armiger Warglave AV 30cm 5+ 5+ 5+ Notes Walker, Infiltrate, Knight Shield
Thermal Spear
(and)
Reaper Chain-Cleaver
Heavy Stubber

Armiger Helverin AV 30cm 5+ 5+ 5+ Notes Walker, Scout, Knight Shield
2x Autocannons
Heavy Stubber

_________________
-Vaaish


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Questoris Mechanicus v1.36 (experimental)
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:03 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 27, 2010 8:07 pm
Posts: 731
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
60cm charge move is way too much. As far as I'm aware, there's no other unit in the game that has even close to that long charge move. The fastest move I know of is either 40cm move (Saim Hann Hornets) or 20cm with Infiltrate.

WE that are scout can certainly garrison. From the tournament rules, page 142:

Formations where half or more of the units (rounding up)
are scouts
OR
Formations where no more than one of the units has a move
greater than 15cms, and where none of the units are war
engines
OR
Any formations that include units with a speed of 0 (zero)

Being WE is only prohibited in the second of the three cases. And as Cerastus are Scouts, no problem.

_________________
AC for Traitor Titan Legion and Hive Fleet Dagon


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Questoris Mechanicus v1.36 (experimental)
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:54 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:30 pm
Posts: 4231
Location: Greenville, SC
the current Forge Knight in the AMTL list also has a 40cm infiltrate move.

_________________
-Vaaish


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Questoris Mechanicus v1.36 (experimental)
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:21 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2003 7:27 pm
Posts: 5588
Location: Bristol
I’d suggest abandoning the infiltrate idea, 30cm doubled to 60 is ludicrously good and inappropriate. Just base 30cm represents it well enough IMO.

I don't really see the need to bother representing both types of Armiger either? It's only a small scout walker and not worth that level of detail/differentiation at this scale. I'd just base Epic stats on the more common version with the melta and chainsaw and not stat the other in the list.

Also you-re wrong Vaaish - War Engines can garrison if half or more of the formation are scouts. It’s possible (though not strategically worth it) in the core Ork list too add tonnes of Kommandos and a WE Battlefortress and have them garrison.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Questoris Mechanicus v1.36 (experimental)
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:09 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 27, 2010 8:07 pm
Posts: 731
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Quote:
I don't really see the need to bother representing both types of Armiger either? It's only a small scout walker and not worth that level of detail/differentiation at this scale. I'd just base Epic stats on the more common version with the melta and chainsaw and not stat the other in the list.


Well the differences in armament makes them play really differently, and they're a really important part of the list (I honestly find it hard to imagine building a list without them) so I think both versions are definitely warranted.

Besides, the list is currently aiming to include all the variants of all the Knights, so leaving out the Helverins would just be plain weird.

_________________
AC for Traitor Titan Legion and Hive Fleet Dagon


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 148 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 ... 10  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net