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Questoris Mechanicus v1.47 (experimental)

 Post subject: Questoris Mechanicus v1.47 (experimental)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:45 pm 
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After having looked very carefully at the various Knight lists out there I noticed that there's a lack of representation of a Knight-list based on GWs current Knight line-up, not to mention their brand new codex. Also, with A-T coming up, and hopefully making all types of Knights available, there would be official models for them, not just unofficial stuff.

For this reason, I've put together Questoris Mechanicus, which really is a re-worked version of the previous House Raven list. I did take a look at doing House specific lists, but decided against it for two reasons: It would make playtesting harder as people would be playing different lists, and Questoris Mechanicus Houses doesn't have all that much personality to begin with. While House Cadmus might have been an exception, and could have made for a nice companion to the existing AMTL-list, it's actually not a Questoris Mechanicus House at all according to current fluff.

Update v1.42 27/8
-> Added a -1 initiative penalty to the Crippling Damage rule, with the aim of making it easier to "soft kill" the large WE.
-> The Knight-Valiant's Thundercoil Harpoon down to TK(1) but gained the "Ignores fields and shields" Knight Tech special rule.

Update v1.43 29/8
Had a look at the Cerastus Knight stats in Sisters of Battle, and think that they probably make more sense than the ones I've had in this one.

-> Cerastus Knights now have a 4+ FF and CC, and better weapons all over. Think this fits well with them being a superior design to the current imperial designs. That obviously means that they now cost more: 350 for 3, but with a Seneschal included as standard.
-> Questoris Knights have 4+ CC as well as FF.
-> Combined the "Bravery" and "Honour & Glory" rules into a single "Bravery, Honour & Glory" rule.

Update v1.45 3/9
Over on the Knight World thread, Borka and Dave discussed the fact that ye old 90-ites Knight Shield isn't the same thing as the modern day Ion Knight shield. Specifically, the Ion Shield doesn't work in Close Combat. So in version 1.45 I'm going to try to test if this is viable ; The Knight Shield is now instead called the Ion Shield, and it doesn't work against CC attacks (but still against FF).

One nice feature of this is that the melee-oriented Knights become better relative to the shooty ones, since it's a lot more unpleasant to get behind the Ion Shield of Gallant than a Crusader. I've been a bit concerned that the Crusader was the obvious choice, and that's definitely not the case now.

Another nice feature is that I think it motivates a -25pts cut on the basic cost for all Knight formations (except the Armigers. Think they're still a great deal at 4 for 175pts).

Other changes in v1.45:
-> The Shock Lances on the Paladin and the Gallant configs are now CC only, not FF.
-> The Preceptor config has got a Thunderstrike Gauntlet again.
-> The Onager Dunecrawler got Invulnerable Save.
-> Some minor changes to terminology.

edit:
-> On further reflection, the loadout for the Knight-Preceptor was a bit too good. The Las-Impulsor now only gives EA +1 in FF.

I'm also quite close to putting together a basic version of Questoris Mechanicus in Tabletop Simulator. Collected passable versions for almost all models from various 40k modules, now I just need to put it together.

Update v1.46 15/9
While taking Knight World to the ETC-tournament last weekend was far from the optimal choice when it came to winning anything (tho I was close in one fight), it was very useful for getting input from experienced players and an all-round reality check on the Questoris Mechanicus list...: Knights in general could do with a boost in competitiveness.

Changes in v1.46
-> No more Questoris Shock Lances in the list, and no more "FS only if they charge".
-> Questoris Mechanicus now has Strategy Rating 3

-> Noble Lances are now known as Questoris lances. Have 4+ FF, base cost +25pts
-> The Battle Cannon is now a Rapid Fire Battle Cannon, with AP3+/AT3+
-> The Gallant now has the same Ironstorm Missiles as the Warden
-> The Preceptor's Las-Impulsor now has AT4+, Lance

-> Aspiring Lances are now called Armiger Lances
-> The former Questoris Knights (the Styrix and Magaera) are now known as Questoris Relic Knights
-> Styrix, Magaera and Acastus Mechanicum got EA +1, IC on their twin Rad Cleansers. +25pts on the Styrix and Magaera.

-> Twin Siegebreaker Cannons on the Dominus Knights now has AP4+/AT4+

-> Reaver costs 550pts and Warlord 750. This is a bit of an experiment. Remains to be seen how much difference their worse crits and the Crippling Damage rule does in practice.

Update v1.47 17/9

-> Changed the wording of the Ion Shield rule to make clear that it works against FF attacks (unless caused by supporting fire of course).

Temporary Army Forge File for Questoris Mechanicus v1.47 can be found @
https://magnusdurr.github.io/snapfire/w ... icus_NETEA


Attachments:
Questoris Mechanicus v1,47.pdf [145.5 KiB]
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Last edited by Mrdiealot on Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:18 am, edited 100 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: House Raven v1.1 (experimental)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:40 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: House Raven v1.0 (experimental)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:12 pm 
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I'll comment more in depth later, but why not just let folks pick from the AMTL and Skitarii lists for allies?

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 Post subject: Re: House Raven v1.0 (experimental)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:36 pm 
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Vaaish wrote:
I'll comment more in depth later, but why not just let folks pick from the AMTL and Skitarii lists for allies?


To keep variety in check I guess? Lots of stuff in there already. I'm usually conservative about allowing too much freedom of choice, but if the core of the list seem to work, I'm open for trying that.

Also, I'm aiming for a mechanized theme to the list, and I think the Skitarii in the Gorgon fits well. But there might be other ways of solving that.

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 Post subject: Re: House Raven v1.13 (experimental)
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:08 pm 
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Ok, so further thoughts:
Nobles: This is a weird formation. 5 knights is pretty heavy. I'd go with the standard 3 and allow upgrades to add the schenshal and additional knights. It's also potentially very unbalanced as I don't think every configuration is of equal value. I'd start with a base (paladin) and then allow additional knights to be added and individuals to be upgraded to alternate loadouts for an appropriate cost.

Armiger: FYI we 're renaming the AMTL forge knights to this with no stat change. Just keep that in mind.

Cerastus: This has the same issue as the Nobles. Castigators and Ascherons are probably worth more than lancers.

Skitarii: doesn't match the current Skitarii formation, probably should. Knights probably wouldn't have access to skitarii on their own. I'd probably drop the gorgon and go with a Triaros or similar or minorus with a corvus pod.
Avengers: stats don't match Skitarii list.
Ark Mechanicus: Knights probably wouldn't have access to this.

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 Post subject: Re: House Raven v1.13 (experimental)
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:59 pm 
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Vaaish wrote:
Ok, so further thoughts:
Nobles: This is a weird formation. 5 knights is pretty heavy. I'd go with the standard 3 and allow upgrades to add the schenshal and additional knights. It's also potentially very unbalanced as I don't think every configuration is of equal value. I'd start with a base (paladin) and then allow additional knights to be added and individuals to be upgraded to alternate loadouts for an appropriate cost.


Nobles are 4 in a formation. The Seneschal is a character upgrade. Think 4 makes them a bit beefier, and giving them a character makes up for lack of flexibility.

I'd rather make changes so that the configurations are of (roughly) equal value than mess around with small differences in points. And in modern fluff, they're all just configurations of a single platform, so making the Paladin standard isn't really motivated anyway.

Vaaish wrote:
Armiger: FYI we 're renaming the AMTL forge knights to this with no stat change. Just keep that in mind.


Sounds a bit odd to rename the forge knight to something it isn't? Why create a conflict with current GW stuff?

Vaaish wrote:
Cerastus: This has the same issue as the Nobles. Castigators and Ascherons are probably worth more than lancers.


Yeah, the Lancer might be worth less as is. Might make the shield even better.

Vaaish wrote:
Skitarii: doesn't match the current Skitarii formation, probably should. Knights probably wouldn't have access to skitarii on their own.


According to House Raven fluff, they're extremely close to Mechanicus. So I think this way of including them works. Swapping the Gorgon for a Tiraros might work, looks pretty cool. Can make them the same as Skitarii.

Quote:
Avengers: stats don't match Skitarii list.


Thought they did? I'll check it again.

Quote:
Ark Mechanicus: Knights probably wouldn't have access to this.


Yeah, you might be correct. Not the most important formation in the list, might as well drop it completely.

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 Post subject: Re: House Raven v1.13 (experimental)
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:11 pm 
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Quote:
Nobles are 4 in a formation. The Seneschal is a character upgrade. Think 4 makes them a bit beefier, and giving them a character makes up for lack of flexibility.

I'd rather make changes so that the configurations are of (roughly) equal value than mess around with small differences in points. And in modern fluff, they're all just configurations of a single platform, so making the Paladin standard isn't really motivated anyway.

It wasn't clear that the formation was 4 units. I'd move the scheneshal. Generally I agree 4 is beefier but I'm thinking that starting with three is more flexible for those using the Knightworld list. You already have the upgrade for more knights so why not just match the base formation and let players add an extra.

Just be careful with the configs. I suspect it'll be harder to balance without adjusting weapons stats on things that might already have stats defined than it would be to just make them upgrades with points changes.

Quote:
Yeah, the Lancer might be worth less as is. Might make the shield even better.

2+ seems excessive.

Quote:
Sounds a bit odd to rename the forge knight to something it isn't? Why create a conflict with current GW stuff?


To move from a fan made unit to one that exists in the fluff. Stats are fairly similar overall with the primary difference being the weapon they have isn't melta. I suspect that GW will eventually add variants anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: House Raven v1.13 (experimental)
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:24 pm 
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Think making the formation less flexible than Knight World somewhat compensates for all the flexibility that all the variants gives, but giving them a Leader as standard compensates somewhat. Kind of like giving certain formations a character as standard, gives them a bit of flavor.

Not sure what to do with the Cerastus Lancer to be honest, maybe someone has a suggestion?

About the Armiger I can see the idea, but I still don't really agree with creating a conflict. What to call what's supposed to be the real Armiger in this list (or others) to avoid confusion? Think Forge Knight is a perfectly fine name.

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 Post subject: Re: House Raven v1.13 (experimental)
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:27 pm 
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You could just match the AMTL stats.

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 Post subject: Re: House Raven v1.13 (experimental)
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:40 pm 
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Those stats don't make much sense in this list to be honest, no other Knight has Infiltrate for starters, and 4+ Reinforced makes no sense either, looking at the model. The weaponry is off compared to the model, and finally, they represent totally different things from a fluff point of view.

If you look at the Armiger fluff, they're for aspiring Knights. I don't really see what those guys would be doing in a list that don't have any other Knights:

Quote:
The Armiger is smaller than its cousins and is crewed by aspiring nobles, low-born commoners with a knack for war, or even the Cad children of Barons and High Kings. In battle the Armigers fight at the flanks of their larger kin, like packs of hounds hunting with their medieval lords

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Knight_Armiger


And that's all I've got to say on the names of stuff.

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 Post subject: Re: House Raven v1.2 (experimental)
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:45 pm 
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Full explanation:
Stat wise Armigers are about as tough as a Leman Russ but has an inv save from the ion shield so 4+ RA with an INV save would be appropriate. While they could have a 30cm+ movement speed, they are meant for hitting targets ahead of the main force and they like to attack up close. Infiltrator nets them a 40cm engagement move which I think does a pretty good job of showing the speed aspect along with the close fighting aspect.

Weapons wise, the manipulators aren't a bad analogy to what a reaper chain-cleaver would get stated out at anyway which just leave the cannon and I'm comfortable with them being armed a bit differently than GW as I suspect we'll see more variants.

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with your assessment.

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 Post subject: Re: House Raven v1.2 (experimental)
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:48 pm 
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Well, that's up to you. The Armigers in this list will stay close to the fluff.

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 Post subject: Re: House Raven v1.21 (experimental)
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 2:28 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: House Raven v1.22 (experimental)
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:46 pm 
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Post updated.

Had my first game ever with the Knight World against Argol's Scions of Iron in Tabletop Simulator, and that game confirmed my impressions of Knights in general. Looking forward to being able to put House Raven on the table!

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 Post subject: Re: House Raven v1.25 (experimental)
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:28 pm 
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Post updated. Version 1.25 is slightly more flexible than before.

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