Ok, I've got the PDF updated and I'll try to get it up a bit later. Nothing major, just fixed some typos and rearanged the Macharius entry to give me enough room for the Avenger.

_________________
-Vaaish

I've added an updated file for Skitarii.

I consolidated the Macharius entry on the Reference Sheet and reworded the Cataphractii Support entry to reflect this. The formation composition remains the same but it did free up some space so I could add the Avenger to the Reference Sheet.

Fixed a typo.

_________________
-Vaaish

Vaasih - you asked this Q over in a batrep thread where my army got toweled up;


I just had an idea im going to throw out there. If it gets up or not doesn't matter - I like my Ad mech red horde, but had a thought that may make it more fun and interesting;

1. instead of the core entry being;
*****

CORE
*Skitarii Demi-century: 2x Secutor, 8x Hypaspist 250pts (all core upgrades)
*Sagitarii Demi-century: 5x Sagitarii, 5x Gun Servitor 275pts (all core upgrades)
*Sagitarii Demi-century: 5x Sagitarii, 5x Rapier LD 300pts (all core upgrades)

UPGRADE (Select up to 3 upgrades)
*Majos: Add to secutor unit 100pts
*Transport: 10x Chimedon 20pts ea. (No Praetorian, Gun servitor or Rapier)
*Flak: 1x Hydra 50pts
*Ordinatus: 1x Ordinatus Minorus 125pts
*****

2. Trial of core entry like this?
*****

CORE
*Skitarii Demi-century: 2x Secutor, 8x Hypaspist 250pts (all core upgrades)

UPGRADE (Select up to 3 upgrades)
*Hypaspist: Add 1-2x Hypaspist 20pts ea.
*Secutor: Add/Replace 1-3x Secutor 25/5pts ea.
*Sagitarii: Add/Replace 1-5x Sagitarii 25/5pts ea.
*Gun Servitor: Add/Replace 1-5x Servitor 25/5pts ea.
*Rapier: Add/Replace 1-5x Rapier 30/10pts ea. (have Laser destroyer &/or Quad mortar as variants)
(Secutor, Sagitarii, Servitor & rapier replace Hypaspist if "Replace" option chosen)
*Majos (CH): Add to secutor unit 100pts (Supreme Commander)
*Transport: 10x Chimedon 20pts ea. (No Gun servitor or Rapier)
*Flak: 1-2x Hydra 50pts ea.
*Ordinatus: 1x Ordinatus Minorus 125pts
*Ordinatus Transport: 1-2 Ordinatus Minorus Assault Pod 125pts ea. (To transport heavier formation without allowing spamming of armed ordinatus).
*****

So in the end, as the same as now, your basic Demi-Century would still be 2 Secutor & 8 Hypaspist for the same cost. But the player now has a whole raft of options for building the force to what he wants to use, using no new or untested options, just a variation in the way they are chosen.

You might want to build up a garrison by adding extra rapiers or hypaspists, or harden a unit by adding servitors.. you can increase firepower by adding sagitarii. The 2x tranport ordinatus allows you to lift a formation that has servitors or rapiers in it, without spamming three over armed minorus into a unit. Replace 3 hypaspists with secutors, mount them in chimedons and drive them into the face of your opponent.
The main theory is giving you choice to actually have some fun with the list without requiring testing on new units.

Formations could grow large I know, but since a demi-century in chimedons is already 20 units in size, I don't think it would be a new issue - in fact, points cost alone would stop a formation moving to more than 20-25 units, and think 10-20 would be the norm.

Anyway, it was just a thought I was having and thought id throw it out there.

Cheers.

_________________

My Epic Army threads;
* Ad Mech (Skitarii, Cataphractii, Titan, IG Cadian)
* Marine (Xth Legion Iron Hands) TBA - soon!
* Necron (Scarab Conflict)
Batrep thread;
* Batreps (My armies being slaughtered by whomever & other battles.)

at first glance that seems rather complex and other than having options for the sake of options I'm not seeing how that makes the list better.

_________________
-Vaaish

Complex - 1 core choice with 9-10 options that you can add.. how is this complex?? How is this more complex then the plethora of cheese marine lists out there?

And as I said - it allows players to build units to what they want to use them for - its not options for the sake of options..

But I guess your only allowed to have options in epic to chose from if your Marine.... or chaos..... or tau..... or guard..... or orcs..... or etc etc etc. Why is making a list usable so much heresy!

Putting up any ideas on any of these forums seems to be a waste of time the more and more I think about it.
- AC's ask for batreps and opinions.
- People playing the list suggest them.
- AC's write everything off without any real consideration or thought.

Ive played about 30 games with the Skitarii list now, and this idea about making the infantry usable (in my opinion) would make the list really fun and varied without requiring much work, Its no more complex then what we already have and whats already out there. Ever put much thought into why others play the UK list version instead??

I said from the outset if it gets up, it gets up, and if not, then too bad.
But I am really put off by the total lack of an AC even consider an option - instead just throwing it in the bin with a "thanks but your thoughts not required throw away"

_________________

My Epic Army threads;
* Ad Mech (Skitarii, Cataphractii, Titan, IG Cadian)
* Marine (Xth Legion Iron Hands) TBA - soon!
* Necron (Scarab Conflict)
Batrep thread;
* Batreps (My armies being slaughtered by whomever & other battles.)

Defensive much? No other list allows for the degree of customization you are looking for here and the EUK list you bring states that most of the changes were to simplify the Skitarii list here. If you feel that it's incorrect to say your idea is more complex then by all means, make your case. Throwing a tantrum isn't going to get you anywhere and I'm a little offended that you assume I'm just binning your idea without any thought.

As for why I say your idea is more complex, it's because you've reduced the core choices to one option but exponentially increased that unit combinations available and done so in a way that's difficult to predict the effect on a list that's stable. Let's look at what you've proposed:

Skitarii Demi-century: 2x Secutor, 8x Hypaspist
Skitarii Demi-century: 2x Secutor, 9x Hypaspist
Skitarii Demi-century: 2x Secutor, 10x Hypaspist

Skitarii Demi-century: 3x Secutor, 8x Hypaspist
Skitarii Demi-century: 4x Secutor, 8x Hypaspist
Skitarii Demi-century: 5x Secutor, 8x Hypaspist

Skitarii Demi-century: 3x Secutor, 9x Hypaspist
Skitarii Demi-century: 4x Secutor, 9x Hypaspist
Skitarii Demi-century: 5x Secutor, 9x Hypaspist

Skitarii Demi-century: 3x Secutor, 10x Hypaspist
Skitarii Demi-century: 4x Secutor, 10x Hypaspist
Skitarii Demi-century: 5x Secutor, 10x Hypaspist

Skitarii Demi-century: 3x Secutor, 7x Hypaspist
Skitarii Demi-century: 4x Secutor, 6x Hypaspist
Skitarii Demi-century: 5x Secutor, 5x Hypaspist

Skitarii Demi-century: 3x Secutor, 8x Hypaspist
Skitarii Demi-century: 4x Secutor, 7x Hypaspist
Skitarii Demi-century: 5x Secutor, 6x Hypaspist

Skitarii Demi-century: 5x Secutor, 7x Hypaspist

This is just the first two upgrade options taken once each and it barely scratches the surface of the potential options you're adding here. I don't really care to go much further as it gets more complicated the more upgrades you have and I think it's ample evidence to my point. That's just options for the sake of options because a majority of those likely won't be used. Case in point, you have an ordinatus minorus upgrade that I assume has access to all battle titan weapons like it currently does. Why create a second transport minorus option when the first already has the option included?

You're complaining about only having options using marines or other lists, but again, marines field homogeneous formations. You don't get to add 1-3 extra devastators to a tactical detachment or mix in up to two terminator stands with an assault detachment in a codex list. Same goes for IG. Skitarii detachments are mostly set up the same as Marines or Guard and I see no convincing case to do otherwise.

Now, I'm pleased that you've put in 30 games with the Skitarii list and you want to help out, but don't just chuck out a random idea and expect me to throw out a couple of years worth of development and playtests across multiple groups without a compelling reason. If you feel the infantry in the Skitarii list isn't usable start by explaining what the problem is with the current formations and why you have come to that conclusion.

_________________
-Vaaish

Atcho: I would advice you to try out the EpicUK list instead. It's a fun and good list!

I gave up on this list a year ago realising the futility of trying to get idea accepted here. This list will never be either developed or approved under the current reign.

_________________
https://epic40ksweden.wordpress.com/

"You have a right to be offended" - Steve Hughes
"Your feelings are hurting my thoughts" - Aron Flam

Vaaish,
OK - Now we are getting somewhere.
Yes - many issues with first post, It was quick, rushed, and maybe didn't get everything across - but at least now you've taken the time to explain what your thoughts were - rather than just NO!.
The whole idea of the "corvus assault pod minoris" suggested seperatly was to allow you to purchase 2 - giving you the ability to transport rapiers and servitors - something that you cant currently do. Thought I explained that, obviousy not well.
So.... lets "work" on the concept. the whole idea of the thing..... 2nd crack;

1. instead of the core entry being;
*****

CORE
*Skitarii Demi-century: 2x Secutor, 8x Hypaspist 250pts (all core upgrades)
*Sagitarii Demi-century: 5x Sagitarii, 5x Gun Servitor 275pts (all core upgrades)
*Sagitarii Demi-century: 5x Sagitarii, 5x Rapier LD 300pts (all core upgrades)

UPGRADE (Select up to 3 upgrades)
*Majos: Add to secutor unit 100pts
*Transport: 10x Chimedon 20pts ea. (No Praetorian, Gun servitor or Rapier)
*Flak: 1x Hydra 50pts
*Ordinatus: 1x Ordinatus Minorus 125pts
*****

2. Trial of core entry like this?
*****

CORE
*Skitarii Demi-century: 10x Hypaspist 225pts (all core upgrades)

UPGRADE (Select up to 3 upgrades)
*Replace 5x hypaspist units with the following;
- 5x Secutor: 50pts.
- 5x Sagitarii: 25pts.
- 5x Gun Servitor: 25pts.
- 5x Rapier: 25pts. (have Laser destroyer &/or Quad mortar as variants)
*Majos (CH): Add to secutor unit 100pts (Supreme Commander)
*Tech Priest? (CH): 25-50pts? (Leader option - since not always going to be a secutor unit).
*Transport: 10x Chimedon 200pts. (No Gun servitor or Rapier)
*Flak: 1-2x Hydra 50pts ea.
*Ordinatus: 1x "Armed" Ordinatus Minorus 125pts OR
*Ordinatus Transport: 1-2x Ordinatus Minorus Assault Pod 125pts ea.
(only 1 armed ordinatus, or, 1-2 transport ordinatus may be selected - not both options
*****
So now, max 10 inf stands in demi century, can be tailored with same options (admittedly better controlled), and allows you to add either an armed minorus, OR 1-2 transport minorus (Which will allow you to actually pick up your rapiers or servitors).

and to follow your lead, here are the 10 (and only 10 now) demi century combinations that this second crack would allow you to build;

10x Hypaspist - 225
5x Hypaspist, 5x Secutor - 275
5x Hypaspist, 5x Sagitarii - 250
5x Hypaspist, 5x Servitor - 250
5x Hypaspist, 5x Rapier - 250
5x Secutor, 5x Sagitarii - 300
5x Secutor, 5x Servitor - 300
5x Secutor, 5x Rapier - 300
5x Sagitarii, 5x Servitor - 275
5x Sagitarii, 5x Rapier - 275

Added to this, although with only 3 selections available 2 may already have been used;
Majos (CH) - 100 (Secutor only) Sup commander
Tech Priest (CH) - 25 or 50? Leader
10x Chimedon - 200
1-2x Hydra - 50ea
1x "Armed" Minorus - 125
1-2x "Transport" Minorus - 125 ea
(only 1 option, either "Armed" or "transport" minorus per demi century).



Mordoton - thanks for the suggestion. I have run the UK list a few times as well, and whilst I do like its flexibility (something that I was hoping to try and suggest into this list), I don't want to give up on the EA version just yet. I'll keep it as my go-to when I want to change things up.
I know Vaaish has done a lot of work getting the AMTL over the line, and into the dev of this list, and I understand his vision of tying all the EA Ad mech lists together in the distant future. Hence, I don't want to just drop bat and run, I'd rather have a crack at adding something worthwhile to the EA list first. I love my red fella's and I want to give others a red hot reason for wanting to play them.

_________________

My Epic Army threads;
* Ad Mech (Skitarii, Cataphractii, Titan, IG Cadian)
* Marine (Xth Legion Iron Hands) TBA - soon!
* Necron (Scarab Conflict)
Batrep thread;
* Batreps (My armies being slaughtered by whomever & other battles.)

Currently Servitors can be transported via Chimedon or a Minorus upgrade using a Corvus assault pod. Rapiers can be transported using the Minorus and a Corvus pod. It's an option I've used many times and found does a great job getting Sagitarii in position to impact the game.

I'm still not seeing what problem you are trying to solve here. Is there a reason why you don't want to see a mix of transport minorus and regular in the same unit? The current system works quite well and doesn't need extra selection rules. If flexibility is your goal here, why remove it for this option. Keep the minorus upgrade as is.

----

That's a more reasonable number of options to have but you've still got some problems. Not all of your options are created equal here and the points are too close to really make a difference in list building. For instance, 5x Secutors and 5x Rapiers are far more powerful than any of the other 300 point options and worth well over 300 points. That option gives you 10 MM shots that will stretch out to 45cm with the 5 rapier shots. It also gives you a really hard hitting CC unit with 5x leader stands. Sames goes for the Sagitarii + Rapier being much better than Sagitarii+ Servitor despite being the same cost. The only reason you'd want to take 5x Secutors + 5x Sagitarii would be to use the chimedon transport option.

Further, the options you have there aren't the only options. Because you are doing this via upgrades instead of as part of the unit selection proper, I can select the replace upgrade twice which allows for completely homogeneous formations. So now you have 10x Secutors for 325. That's a massive death star unit that's silly good and way better than a marine terminator detachment for 25 points less.

So, again, what problem or deficiency are you trying to solve with the current list? Right now I'm seeing a significant boost in power levels while maintaining the current pricing.

Let me put it another way. Here's a list I'd run under your proposal:

10x Secutors + Chimedons -525
10x Secutors + Chimedons -525
10x Hypaspists + Magos -325
Minrous (1xGB, 1x LB) -375
Crusaders -150
Crusaders -150
Colossus -250
Colossus -250
Avenger -225
Avenger -225
total: 3,000

That's two formations of that put out 30 AT shots at 45cm or 40 AP shots(this is due to the legal cheese known as range stretching), 20 of those shots being MW. This formation can double (60cm) and shoot (45cm) and still have enough firepower to wipe out a terminator formation. And there's two of them in that list. That's nuts.

_________________
-Vaaish

** Ad mech list 0.91 - Chimedon transport = 1, with NO praetorian, Servitor's or Rapier allowed.
So Servitors CAN NOT be transported by chimedons, and if you take the minorus with assault pod, Servitors take up 2 spots, so no room for other 5 units.


** The reason I suggested having the transport option separate was to prevent the spamming of armed ordinatus into a formation. If you allowed 1-2 ordinatus, that were not just transport options, then people would use the Skitarii for BM absorbent, and build 2 hard hitting Ordinatus and hide them in the demi century. Having one in there was fine, but I wanted to say if you needed an extra 1 to lift the formation, that's all you get, not the ability to spam quake cannons. Im obviously having trouble explaining this to you.



** and, points would be something to move accordingly once an idea or concept got of the ground. Right now its - "No, your points are wrong!" When we should be saying "Idea ok - but points need work" Think along the lines of say a chaos marine retinue in a list like the red corsairs, where you start with 8 marines, and can swap out 4 stands at a time with at least 5 different types/flavours of marines depending on what you want to use them for.



** Since when?? Options are once each are they not up to max of three per formation. Otherwise, I could spam three ordinatus into a formation of skitarii now, or 3 hydra's, or 30 chimadons... If you can take an option more than once (which I didn't think you could), that would a. - remove the need for the transport only minorus option I was suggesting, and b. - Simply require a note, just a couple of words that said - "you can only take each Inf upgrade a max of once" - How simple was that?
And if having it as an option creates such a problem, then have it as part of the unit selection in the first place. All for a few lines of text this issue could be solved.


** It wouldn't be a permitted list under what I was proposing.

_________________

My Epic Army threads;
* Ad Mech (Skitarii, Cataphractii, Titan, IG Cadian)
* Marine (Xth Legion Iron Hands) TBA - soon!
* Necron (Scarab Conflict)
Batrep thread;
* Batreps (My armies being slaughtered by whomever & other battles.)

I can't go into detail now but please reread the chimedon entry, it say no praetorian combat servitors or rapiers. It says nothing about gun servitors. They can be transported like regular infantry.

Same goes for the upgrades. There is a limit of three upgrades per core but you can take multiples of the same. I may need to word the chimedon entry better but you only get as many chimesdons as units that need transport in the formation so taking the upgrade twice wouldn't get you anything as there would be no additional units needing transport.

_________________
-Vaaish

Ok - I took "Combat Servitors" as a separate unit caused by typo, meaning the servitors themselves, not just praetorians themselves. And I was always under the impression that upgrades were a max of once each - so that also changes things.
This is good news to have, and goes to explain why we were not seeing eye to eye on the minorus stuff. You knew you could already have up to three if wanted - I thought you could only have 1, so needed another rule to get more.

so... Third bash at it, again, the points a just something to start and OBVIOUSLY need work;

Trial of core entry like this?
*****

CORE
*Skitarii Demi-century: 10x Hypaspist 225pts ?? (all core upgrades)

UPGRADE (Select up to 3 upgrades)
*Replace 5x hypaspist units with the following (Hypaspist upgrade can only be selected once per troop type);
- 5x Secutor: 50pts.??
- 5x Sagitarii: 25pts. ??
- 5x Gun Servitor: 25pts.??
- 5x Rapier: 25pts. ??(have Laser destroyer &/or Quad mortar as variants)
*Majos (CH): Add to secutor unit 100pts (Supreme Commander)
*Tech Priest? (CH): 25-50pts?? (Leader option - since not always going to be a secutor unit).
*Transport: 10x Chimedon 200pts.
*Flak: 1x Hydra 50pts.
*Ordinatus; 1x Ordinatus Minoris 125pts.
*****

_________________

My Epic Army threads;
* Ad Mech (Skitarii, Cataphractii, Titan, IG Cadian)
* Marine (Xth Legion Iron Hands) TBA - soon!
* Necron (Scarab Conflict)
Batrep thread;
* Batreps (My armies being slaughtered by whomever & other battles.)

One more note. This can't be the demi century entry due to the effect on the amtl list, so let's assume we are talking about the sagitarii demi century

_________________
-Vaaish

Ok, I'm back in town and I've had a chance to look over things a bit better.

1) The base formation needs to be the current Skitarii Demi-century. This is so we maintain the current options in the AMTL list. It will keep us from needing to re-approve a new version of AMTL using the options here since I can just add a note that no changes to the base formation may be taken. This is also necessary to make the basic formation difficult to spam. Secutors should be around 50 points per stand since they are functionally terminators with better weapons but without teleport, thick rear armor, and ATSKNF. Take them out and the Demi-century would need to be closer to 150 points which is too cheap for a core formation.

2) Sagitarii cannot be part of a Skitarii Demi-century. This is a fluff restriction. Sagitarii that are part of a demi-century are just referred to as Hypaspists. They are only called Sagitarii when they are a separate unit. Because Sagitarii are the Skitarii heavy weapon specialists, rapiers should be paired with Sagitarii.

3) I prefer to have formation composition options as part of the formation entry. It follows the pattern that Feral Orks, Biel Tan, and Orks do and I think this makes selecting a formation a bit easier than referencing the upgrades section for basic composition.

4) I'm not comfortable with Secutors gaining access to cheap range stretching using Rapiers. They already get double range because of the 30cm HB and can push out to 45cm with the Chimedons, but that's a very pricey upgrade.

Because of these reasons, we need to maintain the two separate core entries. One for Sagitarii and one for the demi-century. What we could trial is different options for each of those.

Demi-century:
replace 3x Hypasists with Secutors for 100 points 0-1
replace 5x Hypaspists with Gun Servitors for free

Sagitarii:
Remain as is.

The result should be most of the flexibility you're looking for without the cheese options or options that go contrary to fluff. You're options would be:

5x Sagitarii + 5x Gun Servitor
5x Sagitarii + 5x Rapier
2x Secutor + 8x Hypaspist
2x Secutor + 3x Hypaspist + 5x Gun Servitor
5x Secutor + 5x Hypaspist
5x Secutor + 5x Gun Servitor

I'm ignoring options that are similar combinations but different composition due to the different base demi-century formation composition. You wouldn't be able to take these:
5x Sagitarii + 5x Hypaspist (does not follow fluff)
5x Rapier + 5x Hypaspist (keeps heavy Sagitarii as a dedicated heavy weapons formation)
5x Secutor + 5x Sagitarii (no secutors to keep Magos in Demi-century and prevent access to Rapier)
5x Secutor + 5x Rapier (prevent giving AdMech 10x MW5+ shots at 45cm along with the 5x Rapier shots)

_________________
-Vaaish

Mate, thanks for taking the time to think about it more - your obviously more in tune fluff & reason wise as to the WHY things existed as they did, and I was looking for a few more options without understanding why they didn't already exist.

I like what you suggest above. It allows you to build a show piece secutor unit without spamming them, and you can toughen up the hypaspist by adding gun servitors etc.
And it doesn't bleed over into the AMTL list or change the way you allocate a majos.

Last Q I have, is would you consider allowing the Rapier platform to be upgraded/swapped to something like a quad mortar (opposite stats) or hyperios platforms?

Other than that, could we see something like what you've suggested above in the developmental list soon?

_________________

My Epic Army threads;
* Ad Mech (Skitarii, Cataphractii, Titan, IG Cadian)
* Marine (Xth Legion Iron Hands) TBA - soon!
* Necron (Scarab Conflict)
Batrep thread;
* Batreps (My armies being slaughtered by whomever & other battles.)