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[OLD] Knight World 2.2

 Post subject: Re: Knight World 2.2
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 9:54 am 
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Sounds like a novel approach to gaining feedback, good idea.


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 Post subject: Re: Knight World 2.2
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 11:00 am 
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Matt-Shadowlord wrote:
Sounds like a novel approach to gaining feedback, good idea.


We won't have time to do full reports, but i think we can't pass up the chance to get feedback from Cancon


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 Post subject: Re: Knight World 2.2
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 3:19 pm 
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JimXII wrote:
And batreps and feedback have been provided in the past. None of which was included by you in the playtesting lists.


Links? Either to the battle reports or what I'm ignoring?

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Also Dave please don't make this personal or emotional. Its just toys after all.


If it were personal I'd just be ignoring you.

Mard wrote:
We won't have time to do full reports, but i think we can't pass up the chance to get feedback from Cancon


I know time is limited in these types of scenes but pics of what the armies are doing are what I'm most interested in because of the context they add. On 3), do you guys explain stats/special rules ahead of time?

I'd also add:

7) How many games against the Knights have you played.
8) How many assaults to the Knights initiate and how many did they not?
9) How many assaults did the Knights win?
10) How many cross-fires were the Knights subject to?

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 Post subject: Re: Knight World 2.2
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 3:33 pm 
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I suspect 8, 9 and 10 may be asking a bit much judging by questions 1-7?


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 Post subject: Re: Knight World 2.2
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 9:01 pm 
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Dave you have already recieved an email outlining the specific concerns.


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 Post subject: Re: Knight World 2.2
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 9:31 pm 
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When and from who?

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 Post subject: Re: Knight World 2.2
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 10:11 pm 
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I'll add them to the list Dave, and my phone will be taking pics all weekend. But it is a tourney after all, I don't want to slow things down too much.

Part of me is actually hoping i go up against the other Knight list at some point, we have written very different lists


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 Post subject: Re: Knight World 2.2
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 10:40 pm 
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My impression as the receiving end of some of the playtests is that the knights might be fine but the list seems to lack the stress test.
In most of the reports written the knights have had a balanced army build and the game have also been quite normal in how they have turned out. For example no one (as far as I know) have tried an army with 3-4 lancer groups that starts garrisoned close to the middle and just rushes the enemy.
And yes they are vulnerable to crossfire but hey, so is most units. And it's not that easy to get into crossfire, in our games it just happens once in a while. Not every game. Against Knights I will try to make it happen more often but it is very hard, especially with the lancers and their scout ability.
And much like the Ad Mech you need to take into consideration that this is an (almost) only AT army. Some of the opponents guns will have almost no targets.
That experienced players will be able to stay away from assaults when you learn to play against this army is just nonsense, with a move of 20-35 cm the knights is one of the fastest units in this game.

So in my opinion they definitely do not need a boost, but I'm not saying they are overpowered either.
Just my 2 cents...


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 Post subject: Re: Knight World 2.2
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 2:16 am 
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G'day folks! First post on the forums but just thought I'd throw in my 2 cents.

I'm the white scars player Mard vs this past weekend. It was the first game I had ever played against knights, I hadn't read the list previously, and I'm by no means a "skilled player" so take my words with a grain of salt.

I personally agree with Dave that the Lance rules are fine as is. I think it sticks true to fluff and if changed potentially could throw the list a long way in the other direction. A knight charge is devastating and i wouldn't like I face a knight counter charge that is almost as strong.

However. I do agree with Mard that the army lacks a bit in the way of inspiring. While I'm not sure how this would effect the list balance overall but perhaps look at spreading inspiring around a little more to try and offset the armies weakness to extreme mobile combat armies.

Overall I had a ball playing against this list and it's one I'd look towards trying myself in the future but having played against it I'm confident I could make the game a lot harder for Mard.

I think lance changes are too far in the other direction, but I do think the army needs a tiny something. Maybe inspiring is it. Maybe not.

Cheers

Sam


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 Post subject: Re: Knight World 2.2
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 9:27 am 
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Vaaish wrote:
I have more concerns with win/loss/ draw ratio having nearly twice as many wins as losses. That could be indicative of players still working to learn how to play against Knights or the knight list being a bit OP but time will tell which it is.


I have created a specific thread to talk about some units and offer comparisons. I believe this is the sort of feedback which is being requested, but even so I'd have to ask that if some of it does come across as critical, it's at least seen as constructive criticism.
Thanks!

Are Knight World units over/underpowered? Maths:
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=28890


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 Post subject: Re: Knight World 2.2
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:37 pm 
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Dave, I'm just perusing the list for the first time.

Multiple DC War engine formations with Long Range MW Shooting, Long Range high BP MW, Long Range AP/AT, Long Range BP IF, FS FF MW & FS CC MW if engaging, Knight Shield(unless crossfired/support-fired). All units still able to fire even while having Damage placed per unit (the beauty of WEs).

When I see all these types of weapon stats in a list, I often think it seems to suffer from the "we do it all" design.

I can see crossfire helps but crossfire formations often get destroyed when doing so in my experience so it's highly situational....

How do they handle on the table? I'm guessing activation numbers are low-ish but can be increased if you don't over do the number of Knight formations.


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 Post subject: Re: Knight World 2.2
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 3:58 pm 
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Dobbsy wrote:
I'm guessing activation numbers are low-ish but can be increased if you don't over do the number of Knight formations.
When we play they have normal to high activation counts. Around 10 in a 3000p battle. They have artillery or AA for 125-175 points and thunderbolts to boost activations. My opponent (wisely) plays with a couple of both at least. 5-6 knight formations and 4-6 airplanes/artillery/AA.


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 Post subject: Re: Knight World 2.2
PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 12:24 am 
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Hi Dobbsy,
The activation count remains pretty reasonable. Normally around the 8-10 range at 3k. There are plenty of fillers but the most popular seems to be rough riders and tbolts. The limitatiin comes in that nearly all of your formations are big ticket critical units of knights - so in the first turn you are going to have to start moving your critical formations before your opponent. Which can expose the knights to a lot of risk. Alternatively they can go onto overwatch which prevents too much aggressive manoeuvre by your opponent. But leaves the knights very flat footed.

The shooting looks impressive - especially on the castellans as shown by shadowlord. But the overall shooting from the remaining knights cant be relied upon to win you the game.

I think the support choices are balanced out by the 1for1 core/support choice.

Combat looks great but with an average of 5+cc and ff and no inspiring they are a risky affair. Combined with the devastating effects of a loss of combat. I think they could almost go with something like ATSKNF for combat resolution but that would need to be tested and may op them.

My thoughts.


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 Post subject: Re: Knight World 2.2
PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 6:16 am 
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Dobbsy wrote:
How do they handle on the table? I'm guessing activation numbers are low-ish but can be increased if you don't over do the number of Knight formations.


My usual list is 9 activation (2 Pal, 1 Err, 1 Lan with Baron (BTS), 1 Cru, 1 Cas, 3 Tbolt). I usually deploy in a tight block and try to keep the army in a 3x3' area for most of the game. Spreading out more than that means crossfires and unsupported assaults can ruin their day.

Nearly every time I'm given a chance to retain and engage I take it, even with BMs. I'd rather take the 67% chance at an assault on my terms than an assault on the enemy's terms. Knights aren't scary on the receiving end of an assault, and without fearless breaking them is nasty. Errants are the exception here though if you're playing a high armor army (SM, Chaos), with Guard/Orks I'd have less of an issue engaging MW FF WEs. With SM/Chaos armies I always try to crossfire Errants.

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 Post subject: Re: Knight World 2.2
PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:55 am 
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JimXII wrote:
Combat looks great but with an average of 5+cc and ff and no inspiring they are a risky affair. Combined with the devastating effects of a loss of combat. I think they could almost go with something like ATSKNF for combat resolution but that would need to be tested and may op them.

My thoughts.
Whats risky? Sure they hit on 5+ but both core Knights have 4 attacks and the other have 2-3 attacks. (with FS, MW and TK flavours) Also they have 2 DC (so the unit is virtually 6 man strong from the beginning) and a very good save.
If you compare them to 4 Terminators, 3 Errants or 3 Paladins will kill around 2.25 or 1.25 terminators while the terminators do 2 DC on the Knights. (not counting FS or critical hits and the fact that both hits might be on the same knight) So in the combat resolution the Errants will win by 2.25 being more than twice as many as the termis and the Palladins will win by 0.25 being more but not twice as many.
Do they really need inspiring also...? Do you consider it risky to assault with terminators?

My math might be of and I have not taken into consideration some of the other abilities, what happens after the fight and the fact that terminators is 50 points more...


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