After 6 weeks of close testing, happy to present to y'all, the new version of Knightworld. I'd like you to test it and let me know how it goes. I'm happy to take feedback from you even if you don't play the list but please have a read of what I wrote below to justify my decisions.

Overall I based the work on how I feel a knight list should play, taking into account the 'historical sources' both fluff and previous rules, and also how they interact with the GTS scenario and current army lists:
- they must be self-sufficient
meaning that even with the list having other things in it besides knights, it should encourage players to take more knights than support formations
- they must encourage a brave and gallant fighting style
fighting while outnumbered, charging against bad odds, no 'sneaky' stuff like Eldar and nothing too complicated and tactically-challenging like Marine air assaults and the like
- they must be able to take a beating and still keep fighting, yet not be impossible to kill in order not to frustrate opponents
it was often said of the previous list that it was simply too tough, avoiding all AP fire and being so good that you couldn't charge them, outshoot them or really anything else
- they must be compatible for the most part with the old models but also allow for some of the great proxies that have appeared in the meantime, especially as there haven't been new knight designs for ages while all other lists have moved on thanks to 40k.
- they must be reasonably simple to play like other lists
so no fielding 40 DC2 models and then having to account for all their separate DC!

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Special rules

(as before, to allow it reasonable to field DC1 fms which are 4 strong and not break immediately when a strong wind blows their way)
SPECIAL RULE - Might of the Omnissiah
• It takes two Blast markers to suppress a Knight unit or kill a Knight unit in a broken formation (ignore any leftover Blast markers).
• Knight formations are only broken if they have two Blast markers per unit in the formation.
• Knight formations only count half their number of blast markers in assault resolution (rounding down - note that assault resolution will not receive +1 for having blast marker if the formation has 1 blast marker before rounding down). Halve the number of extra hits suffered by a Knight formation that loses an assault, rounding down in favour of the Knights.
• When a broken Knight formation rallies then it receives a number of Blast markers equal to the number of units, rather than half this number. Knight units with the Leader special ability remove 2 Blast markers instead of 1.

(this is part of the fluff, but I've toned it down to make TK multiple damage weapons better. Also, the shield doesn't work against crossfire and since the basic knights are 5+ save, this means that a cross-fired knight is saving on 6+/6+ so that gives the knights a reason to play in a strong battleline and their opponents to try and outflank them. Also, disrupt is another viable tactic to take them out.)
SPECIAL RULE - Knight Shield
The Knight Shield provides Knights with a 4+ saving throw that can be taken instead of the Knight's normal saving throw. This save may always be taken, even against TK or Macro-weapon attacks. The Knight is also allowed to re-roll its saving throw as per the Reinforced Armour rules unless hit by Lance, Macroweapon or TK attacks, but the re-roll must be made using the unit’s armour save rather than the Knight Shield save.
A Knight may not use its shield against hits sustained in a Crossfire. Make a saving throw per damage inflicted by a Titan Killer weapon, e.g. a TK(3) weapon would require 3 saving throws to be made by the Knight.
Note that the Knight Shield save can be modified by the Sniper rule and that weapons with Disrupt will still cause a BM if they hit a Knight even if it makes its save.

(a fluff rule which also helps avoid the terrible frustration that is to see knights fail to engage when they have a BM on them. Most if not all assault-oriented armies have a special rule to help them get in there AND/OR 1+ initiative. An armored company is okay because even on a hold they can still shoot. Often with knights I found that even after setting up things perfectly I would fail that crucial roll(s) which makes them no fun and unfluffy)
SPECIAL RULE - Bravery
Knights are known for their gallantry and bravado in the face of the enemy. There's no better way to show this than by engaging their opponents in close range battle, especially if the odds are against them. Because of this Knight formations that are attempting to take an Engage action with a target formation which outnumbers them, they get +1 to their action test roll.

(a big complaint about the previous version was how powerful and unfair shock lances were. +1 EA FF first strike even when being charged!!! In the fluff it seems to me to be a close combat attack since it requires touching the enemy to discharge or at least being very close. The first strike is unwarranted as this is not really a lance per se and is as fast or as slow as a bolt shot. The having to use an Engage represents them having to charge their batteries. I'm considering changing this to +1 EA FF if the majority feel it's too underpowered this way as knights have a real problem w/ skimmer heavy armies)
SPECIAL RULE - Shock Lances
A unit may only use its shock lances if it activates with an Engage action.

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Paladins
Still the workhorse of the army and a reasonable choice at the price point I set them. With the specialization of the lancer and the errant, the paladin is now a better choice overall, especially after I improved their speed to 25cm, making engagement opportunities more likely and allowing the mixing with the errant to be easier.

Errants
A truer conversion of the Codex Titanicus version with a very short ranged weapon (also very powerful). They are specialized but I've used them to hunt warhounds and SHTs successfully... which is what they're supposed to do!

Lancers
Fast with the mighty power lance but now with to-hit assault numbers of 5+ for both ranges, bringing them down somewhat in usability. I tested them with scout, but didn't like the fact they could be doubling and shooting artillery pieces on the first activation, so removed the scout. It might come back later! They now work in formations by themselves to further specialize them. Between 3 lancers for 225 or 1 warhound for 275 it's still a toss-up of who's better value but I tend to think the warhound is the better choice which brings the lancer cost into perspective. It's also harder to popcorn lancers now as they are support knight fms.

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Baron
Nothing new here except I added the option to change their engagement weapon as a power gauntlet is more heroic (b2b! not cowardly firefight). Also, it allows some cool modelling options for those not using the official models. In the fluff the baron knight is supposed to be highly customized so I might add other gun options (2 baron cannons and no engage weapon?) down the line. I'm open to suggestions. He gets a slightly better save at 4+/4+ and of course DC2. I take him all the time, mostly for the supreme commander.

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Custodians
Now with added versatility given the ability to pack scout titan weapons! The light quake cannon pigeonholes them a lot, so with other gun options they can have other roles. Also gives players the option to use different models. I've been using 2 crusaders with a turbo laser each. Lots of AT dakka for 275 points but losing a single crusader breaks them and that's not too hard to do at DC1. Players need to be careful when using them as glass cannons, but clever use of blocking LOS w/ other knights (they're all WE remember?) can protect them. This encourages smart play and that can't be a bad thing.

Wardens
Most of the proxies and even the original models had missile launchers on them and I like their role as AA knights with some extra use. So I gave them a weapon that can fire in multiple modes. Indirect fire would be too much and "un-knightly", so they must get themselves into the action if they're not just to be firing platforms. I always field 1 fm of them, but might increase that to 2 to provide better than nothing air cover.

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Armiger Sentinels
Taking the cue from the specialized sentinels that the Cadians and others have - take out scout, increase stats slightly, make them 6 for 100 instead of 4. They get speed 25 to keep up with the knights and improved cc for glorious battle! Remember that in a knight list, any AP targets are specially vulnerable so LVs are always a tough choice.

Other stuff - regular sentinels, trebuchets, ballistas, allies
Holdovers of the previous list which I always found useful to field in limited numbers and help balance out the army a bit. Ideally players wouldn't bring titans as the knights can do the job. I think this list encourages that.

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Playtesting results.
I started with a list which I knew was underpowered and then went up a little every time.
- smashed to pieces facing kult of speed in 1k game.
- horrendous dice facing krieg in a 2k game and lost. Horrendous dice (missed 5 of 7 activations on 1st turn with no BMs!), then failed 6 of my first 9 saves (normal hits) losing Baron just like that. Also hilarious were 4 errants getting into b2b with a shadowsword, missing all the TK b2b attacks and normal attacks, losing a knight to a shadowsword cc attack and then losing combat. Yeah, one of those games.
- drew while ahead of VPs against Space Marines at 3k. Buuuuuut, I was lucky to shoot down his t-hawk w/ 800 pts worht of stuff on a critical. I was however a bit unlucky as once again my errants couldn't hit a TK b2b to save their life and terminators rampaged around my backline with impunity!
- lost against Ginger's Eldar at 3k but had bad dice (worse than Ginger himself!) and played in a cavalier fashion instead of the cagey style that must be used against Eldar with knights. For what it's worth I killed his BTS after stranding it on the table by killing all landed vampires. Then I ran out of activations. He fielded multiple small fms of nightspinners, void spinners, falcons, etc all horrendous match-ups for knights no matter what stats I make for them.
- beat Orks 3-0 at 3k. Had a bit of SR luck but executed plan nicely. Lots of charging into outnumbered combats, dramatic fighting, knights dying all around, fita-bombas breaking knight fms left and right and being shot down by wardens, crusaders doing their business and being unchallenged as the orks couldn't break the line, etc. Good game.

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These two sections bother me. The first seemed a bit more complicated than necessary for dealing with TK weapons. Wouldn't simply rolling one save if a knight is hit by a TK weapon enough?

I'm also curious as to your reasoning to allow scout titan weapons here. I don't remember reading anything that let knights be armed by anything like that before and I feel it might be unnecessarily bleeding over to the titan list.

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-Vaaish

Thanks for the comments and the fact you didn't find that much wrong with it.
1) knight shield save vs TK
I'm not entirely convinced about my choice either. Basically, I felt it was a bit cheesy to make a volcano cannon have a below 50% chance of taking out a knight. Just seemed too bad, for what is in essence a weapon that should be excellent at taking out knights. With this rule, the average volcano cannon shot will take out a knight more often than not and it seems right. It's a bit fidgety, but how many TK(dX) weapons are there really? Not that many. I only got shot by a TK(dX) weapon twice in all the playtest games.

2) extra variety for Custodians w/ Scout Titan weapons
Fair enough, they never had them in the fluff, BUT, the latest edition of these kinghts was 15 years ago. In the meantime not only have all the other lists got new stuff thanks to 40k, but also people have started using proxies for the metal knights due to lack of original models. So, I felt it was reasonable to let people tweak their custodians a bit and allow some different options. They can still field the 'classic' custodians w/ the light quake cannon, but now they can mix it up a little with the scout titan weapons. If somebody is 100% wedded to their original versions, they can always just use the quake cannon of course.

3) Lancers as not core
Fair enough. I had them as a special choice since I was afraid of the all lancer army. But since toning down their FF/CC scores, I probably wouldn't pick them over paladins for most games anyway. Something to ponder for next version?

4) Sentinel speeds
No big deal. Reasoning was that sentinels at 20cm are already a marginal choice in an army where the bulk of the units move 25cm+. If you add to that they are one of the few AP targets on the table, they start to become a very dodgy choice. The faster sentinel allows them to keep up with paladins/errants/baron at least while losing scout which is a big deal. Contrast and compare to Cadian Sentinels (lose scout, gain +15cm on weapon and +1 save), Drop Sentinel (lose scout, +50 pts, gain multi-melta and teleport), Support Sentinels which get a 1BP 30cm indirect weapon, catachan sentinels with flamers and keeping scout at same points cost, etc. My point being that sentinels if anything seem highly customisable and it would make sense that the knightworld would spec theirs to match their army. Perhaps I should just call them squires and remove the sentinel tag altogether. You know, the mini-knights piloted by aspiring paladin jocks.

Regardless, thanks for the comments and the educated responses.

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Go up against a Guard army and you'll find a rather large number of Volcano cannons and other TK weapons.

However, against other armies this might not be the case. It just feels far to complicated for the benefit you are getting. If you have concerns with TK weapons not being good enough, would it be a problem to increase the save to 5+ against TK weapons due to their power? alternately, just don't let them take the save against TK weapons. Assume the power is such that it completely overwhelms the shield.



The argument that other lists have new toys or people are using proxies isn't solid enough to warrant the change you are proposing. Fluff needs to drive the list and I don't think it's a good route to break from that unless absolutely necessary and especially not in the way you are proposing. IIRC knights were supposed to be from backwater worlds originally for herding "cattle" with the families in liege to the AdMech. Even just adding scout titan weapons is a pretty sizable jump in capabilities and I don't see the Mechanicus having any to spare or seeing the need to waste resources attaching them to Knights not to mention supporting maintenance requirements to keep them working. It just feels out of place to put titan weapons here when most of what is seen are things like battle cannons, lascannons, or autocannons even accounting for accounting for the Mechanicus attachment. I won't argue they could use more options, but titan grade weapons just aren't it. I think a better route would be to look at the new Guard codex for inspiration especially on the Russ main cannon options.

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-Vaaish

Having spent some time testing this with Carlos over the past few weeks I guess I should chip in on some of these thoughts:

1)Sentinel changes I don't see as an issue, plenty of other lists customise them and it makes sense to retain a platform where possible as opposed to creating yet another new unit which is fundamentally the same. Call them squires if it makes people feel better.

2)Agree that knight shields could be tweaked, they work as is but no reason other ideas can't be looked at.

3)Lancers in my opinion work as support, paladins are always supposed to be the backbone of an army, your line troops. Specialists in most lists are a support option.

4)Scout titan weapon options were always going to get some pushback but in practice they are quite an elegant solution. All fluff refers to custodians as either being in specialised anti-infantry or anti-armour configurations, in previous versions the play style the light quake cannon encourages renders the at/ap weapon option largely redundant and also not in keeping with the knightly theme. I think it's a mistake to slavishly adhere to 15 year old snippets of fluff at the expense of a fun and flavourful list. Going this route also prevents having to create yet more new weapons (KISS principle should apply where possible) in doing so adding yet more clutter to the game and encouraging more rules creep.
It's also worth noting that this list may not be referring to a backwoods undiscovered knight household, rather one that's been repatriated with the Ad-Mec (such as in the case of the story in E&C's supplement) as such given that knights are always described as being highly customisable it's not to much of a stretch to think they may have acquired such suitable weapon systems.
It also goes some way to negating the need for the warhound crutch that so many imperial lists seem to rely on. Which given knights are prone to operating independently is a nice boost to the flavour of the list.

Thanks for all the comments and support so far. I'm playing Alansa's Space Marines next Thursday and will perhaps try out Custodians w/ tank weapons: vanquisher cannon, demolisher cannon, etc. Any requests?

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