seriously. is there some inside joke about them? i play against alot of horde orcs and nids and i find the close ranged templates to be a boon.

plus the FW sculpts are very nice.

I agree that the models are brilliant. But background must trump almost all concerns, ultimately.

Your concern has been heard, mind you...

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how did they survive in the list this long?

It says Arc Mechanicus in the Orbital Support section, BTW. Should it not be Ark?

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At least it's head and shoulders above the variants that GW has sh...spat out for it's Apocalypse Kits! Banehammerswordbladebanestorm indeed...

probably because until very recently most effort on the AMTL list focused on the Titan list rather than the skitarii. Changing gears here, I'll be trying to get in a game with warhound spam this week against guard.

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-Vaaish

Of course I am voicing this very late in the discussion, but i think the best solution to the infamous TurboLaser Affair, is to make the turbo laser range 45 cm on the Warhound and 60 cm on the Reaver.

After all, Laser are Energy weapons, and a Reaver has a much bigger reactor and power source than a Warhound.

The way FW solved this was even to give the Reaver the same weapon, with one more barrel and a custom name; I can't see why we couldn't do the same in E:A; if that meant renaming the TLD for the Reaver as a Laser Blaster with the same stats, so be it.

Maintaining weapon homogeneity between Warhound and Reaver is causing more issue than it solve, IMHO.

Now, this is a theoretical opinion, but as I've had it since the start of this list, not long after E:A edition, i needed to voice it, even if i don't have time and partners to play any more.

That's the Reaver's arm weapon, the Laser Blaster.

The Reaver's still allowed to take a Warhound-type Turbolaser on it's carapace mount. A Warlord is allowed two, incidentally.

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The root cause of this really is the original Reaver in E:A list is said to be armed with arm mounted TLD. This is the root cause of this balance issue, if you think about it.

Since that time, FW Reaver came out, invented a new weapon and mounted it on the Reaver, I just think the Reaver weapon name should be changed. The actual weapon model is 20 years old anyway...

IMHO If this Reaver stats were kept but the weapon name edited to say "2 Laser Blaster and 1 rocket Launcher", the issue would be solved. Of course, you'd need to do the same for the warlord, and it's more problematic since the weapon is actually, on the released model, the same as on the FW released Warhound.

The Other solution would be to simply make the turbo laser 45 cm ranged on the Warhound. This could easily be justified, background-wise, by the smaller plasma reactor of the Warhound compared to the Battle titans. I just don't like the idea of 4 dices 60cm range weapons on the Warhound. The Warhound TLD would be fine with a 45cm range, without any special adjustment in point costs.

IMHO, just having a different weapon stat (same name or not, that wouldn't be an issue to me actually) for the reaver Laser stuff and The warhound TLD would be the best solution.

But well, I've voiced my opinion on this, and gave my arguments, after all I never get to play lately, so you may happily forget my design concern if the list is working fine as it is

The other, other solution is simply to adopt the 40k/modern background weapon restrictions and use appropriate points costs from there. I think that would actually result in a very good level of balance.

However, that idea is consistently disliked.

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Quite disliked by because of the effort involved in cracking off weapons and rebuilding models to be legal without doing counts as. The current up in price to 35 points seems to force taking a lot of TLD or none at all in favor of the laser blaster in my mind. 6x shots for 50 points or 8x shots for 70 and have an odd points value to work inside.

As much as I dislike the odd point value it does seem to have the needed effect. At this point I'm more concerned with the ability to spam warhounds again. We are still in the middle of a game, but 5 warhounds is a pretty hefty increase from previous lists and still has room for a couple heavy titans and a sentinel screen.

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-Vaaish

I don't get quite where you're going Athmospheric with the TLD/Laser Blaster issues. As far as I'm aware there has always been the two weapons, the TLD is the two barrel version and the Laser Blaster is the three barrel version (although the older models look different).

The current GW Warlord has 2 TLD on the Carapace (as per the E:A rulebook loadout)
The current GW Reaver has 2 TLD on the arms
The current GW Warhound doesn't have the TLD but crucially the mostly available older Warhound uses the TLD weapon as found on the Reaver.

Essentially the weapon model for the TLD is fixed and is widely used on the Warhound and is the weapon used on the current Reaver. FW models are the divergent factor. A thing that annoys players is the same model (TLD) for different weapons (TLD/Laser Blaster) particularly when there is already a model that exists for the second weapon (Laser Blaster). In short the existing model base dictates that the Warhound TLD and Reaver TLD have the same rules and that the Laser Blaster must be an upgrade in the AMTL list because any other solution invalidates the models of either the older Warhound or all Reavers.

well, in the past the same weapon could have some limitation depending on the Titan it was mounted on. Most notably, if I remember correctly, The plasma gun could only fire one turn every two if mounted on the warhound, and didn't have this limitation on battle titans. I might misremember though, I'll check tomorrow.

I just think that from a pure balance POV, it doesn't really make sense to have a single 60cm ranged weapon while the other scout titans weapons are 45 cm limited. The question simply didn't exist before the AMTL list in E:A, because all titans were fixed configuration and everything else was a count as, so TLD on Warhound simply didn't exist. I even think I remember that the TLD range was toned down for the Reaver (wasn't it initially 75cm ?). On the Warhound, given it's speed, I think it's impossible to get right.

As I said, on the other hand, I don't get to play any more, so my preoccupation is quite theoretic and no one need to actually mind that concern. I'm sure the list probably works well enough. I've just always been bugged by that thing and needed to voice it.

Some corrections:
Current names and abilities of Titan weapons (other than previously found on the Warhound) where introduced in WH40k with Apocalypse.
Only THEN did FW develope it's WH40k sized Reaver Titan with Laser Blaster arms.

The TLD where originally 45cm in the rulebook but the range was increased to 60cm as the Titans seemd too weak for their points cost.

Note that TLD/LB in Wh40k Apocalypse have both a range of 96" (thats ca 90cm in Epic).
Actually ther is:
Turbolaser Destructor (mounted on a Thunderhawk) = 1 shot
Double-barelled Turbolaser Destructor (Warhound Arm or Battel Titan Carapace) = 2 shots
Laser Blaster (Battle Titan Arm) = 3 shots.

Range, Damageoutput, etc is the same on all three weapons.

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