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Carapace landing pad

 Post subject: Carapace landing pad
PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 3:22 pm 
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Following on from my looking at warhounds I decided to look at the CLP and the different permutations of weapon loads that go with it, so that it might be possible to see which are going to be the most common and the points aloacted upon that bases.

Lets start with the Reaver

CLP and two MRLs 700pts
This has 6BP out to 120cm.  Placing two templates and two BMs and hitting with AP4+/AT5+

A cheap blitz guard or stand off weapons platform. ?It wont do much by itself, but should be able to reduce enemy mixed/infantry formations to a reasonable level for the other units to deal with.

CLP and two quake cannons 850pts
This has 6BP MW out to 180cm.  Placing two templates and two BMs and hitting with AP4+/AT5+

Quite a lot more expensive than the MRL version, but has an extra 33% range and ignores RA and cover saves.

Its? bonuses compared to its cost possible isn?t justified on such a weak chassis. ?Its ability to kill so well will result in it being targeted early on with long ranged counter fire and teleport/air assaults.

CLP and two inferno guns 700pts
This has 6BP ignore cover out to 60cm.  Placing two templates and two BMs and hitting with AP4+/AT5+

Again a sub optimal choice. ?Its lack of range means that it needs to move turn 1, or hope that the enemy charges madly forwards (even garrisons are out of range). ?As a result it is losing the ability it is paying 100pts for. ?However against a horde army in a ruin heavy board it could be quite useful, as it can stand off beyond charge range and fry the enemy.

Warlords
CLP and three MRL 850pts
This has 9BP out to 120cm.  Placing three templates and two BMs and hitting with AP4+/AT5+

I have used this configuration several times and find it to be very useful. ?It can reach almost the entire board and its barrage can easily cover a big warband or several formations.

CLP and three quake cannons 1075pts!
This has 9BP MW out to 180cm.  Placing three templates and two BMs and hitting with AP4+/AT5+

Well this is an expensive beast, more than 1/3 of a standard tournament points in a single model. ?However it is capable of hitting anything on the board with a 3 template macro barrage. ?Including those pesky deathstrikes. ?Overkill maybe, but it will make the rest of the army feel safe. ?Possible targeting solutions would be

Turn 1: death strikes
Turn 2: Russ company/ Shadowsword company
Turn 3+: finish off the above/ anyone close to an objective/BTS

CLP and three inferno guns 850pts
This has 9BP ignore cover out to 60cm.  Placing three templates and two BMs and hitting with AP4+/AT5+

Why, o why by the holy spanner (size 21) would anyone take this option? ?It lack the speed of the Reaver to bring its weapons to range. ?I just can?t say anything else about this affront to the legio.

Other weapon fits

Reaver

I can see no other viable weapons fits for the Reaver. ?Dropping one of its barrage weapons for something else drops its? BP attack to 1 template 1 BM AP4+/AT5+ and will up its cost for the MRL and inferno gun variants (unless you are taking a las cutter or close combat weapon).

You could drop a quake cannon for a direct fire weapon, but it dramastically reduces its effectiveness (if you have a 180cm range weapon what are you doing with a range 60 back up?).

Warlord.

Ignoring the inferno lord

Both types of warlord could drop a BP weapon for a CC weapon or the las burner. ?The MRL lord will cost the same, but the quake lord will go down to a mere 1000pts.

I can see this being most viable on the quake lord, to help it against air assault/teleports and saving some points. ?The MRL lord gains some protect but at no saving.

The MRL lord could also swap one MRL for a support missile (costing 925pts). ?The reason for this would be to enable it to strike at any hidden deathstrike style nuisances. ?It does reduce the effectiveness of the CLP (since you lose 1/3 of the barrage) and miss the first turns firing, however it does mean another warlord doesn?t have to carry it and not move to get the indirect fire on the hiding deathstrikes.

Ranking

It is hard to rank the Reaver against the warlord, so I wont. ?However I will place them in rank order of what I thing is the best to worst, for both warlord and Reaver

Reaver
1. MRLs
2. Quake cannons

I think that the cheaper MRL reaver is better than its stronger quake brother, because it is less of a threat, and less likely to end its days at the hands of some irate terminators

Warlord
1. 2 quake cannons and las burner/ close combat weapon
2. 3 quake cannons
3. 3 MRLs
4. 2 MRLs and las burner/ close combat weapon
5. 2 MRL and a support missile
The quakes win against the MRL because the warlord should be able to handle the air assaults and what not, however because they will be gunning for him the close combat weapon is mandatory for such a beast.

The MRLs don?t need the close combat weapons because a MRL lord might not be your BTS and if it isn?t let them send the teleporters to the wring place on the battlefield.

A note on cost.
I know that some people, like TRC, like to keep their titans cheep, so they can have lotz of them. ?I however believe that there is nothing wrong with an expensive warlord. ?I often field a 1050pt plasma lord (two plasma cannons, two plasma destructors, legate, carapace multilasers) and find they work well. ?However, for those who prefer to keep their titans cheep swap places 1 with 3 and 2 with 4.





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 Post subject: Carapace landing pad
PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 3:35 pm 
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Note that the Reaver's carapace landing pad will be cheaper than the warlord's pad in the next version.

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 Post subject: Carapace landing pad
PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 3:44 pm 
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It needs to be.  However think that the warlord is too cheep with three MRL and a CLP.

what would you say to the CLP being 75pts and the MRL both being 25pts?  This would take the overall cost up to 150pts, which is a lot more reasonable.

another option would be that the CLP costs 25pts per barrage weapon it is making indirect.  So a CLP and three MRLs cost 150pts, but it only costs 100pts fo the CLP and two MRLs

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 Post subject: Carapace landing pad
PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 3:54 pm 
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For the Warlord, I'd take MRLs and a support formation over QCs and CC weapon.  A ring of infantry 5 infantry carefully spaced on 40mm bases should make it impossible to either air assault or teleport/assault until the infantry is cleared in some way.  And, of course, they provide more FF attacks, potential OW attacks, and can move off later to an objective once the threat of deep strikes is expended.  Ditto for Sentinels.

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 Post subject: Carapace landing pad
PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 4:04 pm 
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Everyone has their own ranking and styles.  It would be nice to see how everyone ranks they different configurations and get an average.

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 Post subject: Carapace landing pad
PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 4:15 pm 
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(ragnarok @ Apr. 14 2008,15:44)
QUOTE
It needs to be.  However think that the warlord is too cheep with three MRL and a CLP.

what would you say to the CLP being 75pts and the MRL both being 25pts?  This would take the overall cost up to 150pts, which is a lot more reasonable.

another option would be that the CLP costs 25pts per barrage weapon it is making indirect.  So a CLP and three MRLs cost 150pts, but it only costs 100pts fo the CLP and two MRLs

What if we simply delete the Carapace Landing pad, and simply create a second type of Rocket Launcher which already has the Indirect ability as standard?


IE:

Multiple Rocket Launcher - 60cm, +25 points.

Apocalypse Rocket Launcher - 60cm, Indirect Fire, +50 points.



EA's version of giving the CLP the ability to grant the Indirect ability only came about because all Titan weapons had to cost the same ammount after all.

Back in 1st/2nd edition, the CLP had nothing to do with indirect fire weapons, and was instead used as a transport pad for skimming units / infantry, IIRC.

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 Post subject: Carapace landing pad
PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 4:31 pm 
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Great review again Rag.

For a Reaver, I'm currently tempted to try 2*MRL & a Barrage Missile, cheap than current CLP and still able to hit Indirect in the first turn. Following that with the game more developed I should be able to find targets for turns 2 & 3 with direct fire.

I like the CLP and would like to see it stay but the powergamer in me likes the idea of indirect MRL for +50pts each. Would you do the same for the Quake Cannon?

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 Post subject: Carapace landing pad
PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 4:32 pm 
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And as a spotter, especially for titans using relay.

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 Post subject: Carapace landing pad
PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 4:34 pm 
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Back in 1st/2nd edition, the CLP had nothing to do with indirect fire weapons, and was instead used as a transport pad for skimming units / infantry, IIRC.


I can't speak to first edition, but in 2nd the skimmer counted as LoS for targeting barrages.  IDF makes sense in that respect.  (IIRC, the Speeder was a command unit in its own right, which meant it could charge around and do other stuff by itself).  I don't recall it providing any extra transport beyond the Skimmer.

From the Netepic text:
Carapace Landing Pad: This is a combination of a Recon Land Speeder and an advanced fire control system. The Land Speeder maintains constant communication with the parent titan, scouting for targets and directing the titan?s barrages. When the titan uses an artillery weapon it may trace its line of sight from the Land Speeder instead of itself. That is, the titan may fire at locations in the Land Speeder?s line of sight using direct barrages. This will not eliminate the obligatory scatter of some missiles such as Barrage or Vortex Missiles, but can be used as line of sight for initial targeting of these missiles.

Fire Control Centers just gave a bonus to-hit.  That doesn't work so great in Epic because it allows much min-maxing based on weapons' to-hit rolls, so it was switched to "count as" a CLP.


Stylistically, I don't really care for innately indirect fire weapons on titans.  Maybe times have changed, but I can't shake my concept of them as primarily spearhead units, land-battleship shock troops.  If they need to be changed out to specialized gear for an arty role, that's different than being normally rigged for it.

As always, YMMV, and a working list is better than style over substance.

How would you make different kinds of MLs WYSIWYG?

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 Post subject: Carapace landing pad
PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:38 pm 
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I can't speak to first edition, but in 2nd the skimmer counted as LoS for targeting barrages.  IDF makes sense in that respect.


Fair enough, the CLP stays as it is then. :)


How would you make different kinds of MLs WYSIWYG?

It's lucky I won't have to answer this one I guess. :D

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 Post subject: Carapace landing pad
PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:00 pm 
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Yes in SM1st it was only a transport device for troops expecially Skimmers and JumpPack Infantry. A Carapace mounted Corvus Assault Pod so to speak.

In SM2nd it was as nealhunt describes.

But note: The Carapace Landing Pad and Fire Control Tower/Fire Control Platform where NEVER allowed for the Reaver Titan.

In SM1st the Fire Control Tower/Fire Control Platforn also was only available togehter with a Deathstrike Centreline Cannon.

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 Post subject: Carapace landing pad
PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 8:00 pm 
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Hmmmm.... but cruisers (Reaver titans) make better support platforms, following the 'land battleship' analogy.  Warlords should be taking out other heavy titans, in the thick of battle.  Hounds should be keeping the small fry off the Warlords.  Reavers should be the titans doing the independent ops and assault support.

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