Played 3k against Black Legion tonight. I was using the TOP SECRET v1.3 of the knightworld which has less assault stuff for most knights and makes paladins a bit weaker but cheaper. We both brought more or less lists optimised against what we expected to face.

I brought: 2*4 Lancers, 2*5 Paladins, 2*1 Warhounds (Vulcan, Plasma), 6 Errants/Lancers (3 of each), 2*3 Trebuchets, 2 T-bolts, 6 Squires, 3 Wardens. BTS was the 6 Knights. Why that and not the Castellans/Crusaders? Because the latter are relatively easy to kill by chaos termies. Teleport in w/ daemon prince, win SR roll, charge w/ a bucketload of MW attacks... etc. Castellans/Crusaders not having Indomitable doesn't help. I also consider the Baron essential because of the problems of running an assault army that's footslogging, w/ a base initiative of 2+ and a mediocre SR. But this opponent had used a spacecraft against me before and the risk of getting the Baron pin-pointed to death straightaway was too big. My choice of Warhounds might seem strange but they have several advantages compared to knights given their 1+ activation, fearless, speed and void shields which stops them from breaking too easily. Comparing 300 points of Warhounds w/ 2 plasmas w/ 300 points of errants which also have 4 MW attacks, you can see that the Errants are not THAT amazing really. Easy to supress (whereas hounds have to be broken completely), fail activations, move slower, every hit forces a save (instead of just taking a void shield) and so on. Yeah, they're better in CC assaults but you have to get there and you're not going to win the SR most times and will have to sit there like an idiot waiting to be sustained. The plasmas can't shoot the following turn, but then again how many times an agressively played Errant fm (only 30 cm range so has to be agressive) will get all its shots the 2nd turn anyhow?

He brought: 2 retinues (1 w/ lots of trimmings like SC and havocs), 2*1 Ferals, 1 Deathwheel, 2 Decimators in a single FM, 8 bikes, 5 termies+prince+obliterator.

He had to leave at the end of turn 2 w/ the knights marginally ahead. I had broken several of his fms but they all came back at the end of turn 2 even w/ me pressuring them to force the 4+ rally. The difference in initiatives and the sheer amount of fearless WE that Chaos can have is huge between the two armies. Also, the lack of MW weaponry in the knight list is tough against a lot of reinforced armour, so I concentrated on just breaking stuff and then crossing fingers it wouldn't come back as so much of it was fearless. I broke the termies, the wheel, 1 of the ferals in this way, but then all those reinforced armour saves meant I was just throwing knight cannon shots into a bottomless pit after that.

Overall the list felt all right. Lancers are a bit iffy in my opinion now. Sure, their firefight is deadly, but it's very hard to set things up for that to work. The 45 cm assault range is nice, but too big lancer fms are very expensive and very specialised. And spamming 3 strong fms means you enter most assaults down 2 because of outnumbering... and are also very easy to break (and then it's 4 or 5 to rally!). Errants are okay because of their MW attack outside assaults and by having a better MW firefight stat now, but again every BM supresses a shot. Compare and contrast to a warhound w/ twin plasmas which also moves faster. Oh, and Errants will only ever use their TK cc attack if the opponent lets them (especially now w/ the shorter countercharge range) so that's almost irrelevant. They can't teleport in, or come in on the thunderhawk, etc. Paladins feel about right. Once again an fm of more than 5 doesn't really work because they block each other's LoS. You will never use their CC MW attack anyway, and they compare okay w/ Defilers who are more vulnerable but are fearless (and have infiltrator WTF??) and can sit back and shoot whereas the paladins have to get stuck.

There were 2 assaults. Termies teleporting in and shredding 4 lancers who were a bit unsupported (as normal as they were going forward to be in FF position for turn 2). Then an ill-advised assault by a retinue on a warhound of mine who had the 6 errant/lancers in support position. Ill-advised indeed. It's somewhat telling I wasn't able to launch any assaults of my own with an assault army...

I need a few more 1.3 games to get a feel. It's a meat and potatoes list. It does what it does w/ no big tricks. It doesn't allow any big tricks or surprises and is a bit predictable but it's tough to kill. The knights need to work in tandem somehow to avoid teleporting/aircraft surprises which feels right.

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Recently we have had games against the Knights and I think Morgan may have been a little dismayed by opponents saying that they either had no interest, or they would prefer not to have to play against the Knights again. This is obviously a quandary for any list developer.

Knowing that I have a history of wanting the Knight list to represent something other than what it does now, Morgan (before he flew off to GenCon) threw the challenge to me and asked, "if you (I) was to change the Knight list, what would it look like"? His non-negotiables were as follows:

1. Have to be killed in 1 hit (no 2DC WE)
2. The 3 basic formations have to stay
3. Standard per capita cost should remain - this I think may actually be negotiable

So now that he is on a plane, and without taking a further look at the list and knowing what I thought the list should look like, I was hoping to get people's views on the below suggestions as a start. No doubt Morgan will look at all the below and answer what he needs to when he gets back, yet in the meantime, I thought it would be a good idea to collate the thoughts based on these immediate ideas:

1. Remove Indomitable (throw it away - burn it - can it)
2. Remove INF based AA units
3. Remove aircraft options (controversial I know)
4. Give all the knights ATSKNF
5. Price the Knight formations up by 25 points

What the above does (in my rose-tinted view I guess) is lower the activation count, give them a bit of protection from Assaults, BM deaths, Suppression etc. and give them the real weakness of air supports (obviously the Warden would become a necessity? - not a bad thing IMO).

So just on that basic outline opf the above, what are your thoughts?

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Well, I'm playing the 1.3 list tonight so will let you know how that goes later. As for your comments:

1. No worries, although something needs to be done regarding the low numbers of knights overall and how easy that makes it to break them through BMs
2. There are none that I know of? Possibly you mean the ballista which is an LV. I wouldn't mind losing it.
3. As you said that forces the knights to have Wardens w/ ballistas which is the sort of list-writing which I don't like, ie forcing certain options. Warden fms are already a good choice as they are 250 pts for 3 void shields and 6 DC which is very, very good. Perhaps Knights would only have some sort of crappy fighter instead of the fancy thunderbolt? Another role that fighters have in knight lists is to hit hard to reach targets. Let's face it, every list out there has something to hit stuff on the other side of the table. Whether it's planetary bombardments, aircraft, teleporters, ground assault from aircraft, proper artillery, etc etc. Knights have their thunderbolts and that's it.
4 & 5. Worth more than 25 per fm in my view.

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Well, I agree with the ATSKNF bit, but as I recall that didn't go over well as a suggestion in the past. "It's a marine thang, you wouldn't understand."

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Morgan was open to ATSKNF, however there is always that.

Carlos: Some interesting feedback.

I think I will take a closer look at the list. I have only ever really been on the receiving end or spectator for this list. Hence why I thought I would throw the ideas up here

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The feeling I get when I play knights, compared to my other armies Eldar and Tyranids, is that the knights are a very simple, straightforward list. They do what they do nicely, which is take punishment with their 4+ RA and Indomitable, and have a good 2nd and 3rd turns (1st is a bit crap due to lack of long range guns and impossibility of assaults). But they don't really have a plan B that they can execute, or the kind of specialized builds and specialized fms that can make them surprise the opponent. If I was playing Epic in solitaire mode and wanted to pick the AI army, I'd definitely pick knights as they're simple to use and simple to predict. Restricting their options and making them better at what they already do well is not the way forward. If anything increasing the differentiation between existing knights (both the DC1 and the DC2 ones) is the best.

As for ATSKNF it seems okay-ish but might make them overpowered. Some parts of it are okay for knights (like requiring 2 bms to be supressed or hacked for instance), whereas others aren't okay (counting half BMs in an assault since they are hard to put BMs on due to good save).

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***comments below were from using version 1.3 of this list which hasn't been completely released yet (and might never be)***
Played Cadians tonight and won 5-0. My opponent made a lot of mistakes though and I capitalised on them which is something the knights can do.
I brought:
5 paladins + baron - BTS
5 paladins
2*5 Errants
4 Lancers
2*3 Trebuchets
2*1 Warhounds (Plasma, Vulcan)
2 Tbolts
3 Wardens (2 battlecannons, 1 ballista)

I noticed there's some stuff I've never taken so far like the infantry (what role does it play w/out transports?) and seneschals which seem a waste of points -> what the army needs is more bodies so it won't break easy, all else is a bit of a distraction. It was a bit lopsided so Indomitable didn't come into play often. Broken stuff tended to remain broken though. I was lucky I knew I'd be facing Cadians so I could bring the Baron to help w/ the 2+ (almost always 3+) initiative. Cadians can't bring spacecraft so no pin-point attacks to wipe out the Baron 1st turn.
Trebuchets might be a bit too cheap in this list since they cover a glaring hole. I'd buy them at 150 pts but not at 175pts for what that's worth. Wardens are pretty inoffensive but for 250 pts hard as rocks. In all games they seem to do the same which is spend 3 turns laying BMs to prepare assaults and then claim 1 or 2 mid-table objectives.
Errants were cool but I still don't know why people get so worked up about facing them. Sure, they have MW4+ attacks but they move 25cm which is only okay, and their shots only have a range of 30cm which means you're usually doubling so hitting on 5+. And then of course the errants get in each other's way to get a clear shot since they're WE and are always more or less suppressed. Their TK attacks in cc are a huge red herring as w/ their mediocre SR and 5cm counter-charge they will very rarely use them.
Lancers now seem balanced as their great speed is counter-balanced by lack of firepower outside assaults. The new lance rule (every knight gets a 5+ 15cm FF attack with first strike if it's in an assault, but no support fire) works very well. Better than putting it as yet another EA in the statline.
Other thoughts:
- first turn I had a bunch of knights bunched up (big footprint) to avoid the doomsday cannon and the Ordinatus Cadia and my opponent doubled w/ 4 valkyries and dropped 8 BP on 3 different knight formations. Disrupt really works wonders against knights. None of my fms broke, but I lost 3 knights and were 1 or 2 bms in all of them away from breaking. I then laid firepower and assault w/ the paladins w/ the baron. Nobody in base contact but the first strike lances and supporting fire from nearby friends worked well.
- Air defence is so bad w/ knights most of the time that for all the game I was wondering when he'd throw his t-bolts on the trebuchets. 150 pts of t-bolts basically auto-break and completely destroy the trebuchets if they attack them. But my opponent kept failing their activation.
- It would be nice to have some BP on the list. Currently use standard warhounds but might start using them w/ inferno guns as lots of infantry in cover is very hard for the knights to deal with, and there's never enough trebuchets.
- No idea how this list would play out against air assault marines but will find out soon...

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Further thoughts on the Cadians? What was the list? Feel free to answer in the Cadian v1.3 thread if you wish, found in my sig.

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Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

Carlos. I am interested in the above selections.

What was the purpose for taking the above 5 (?) activations? Was it simply because they were cheap activations?



This was another area that I was going to bring up. More later when I get the time to look at the list.

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That meant 2 times 3 trebuchets. So 2 fms of 3 trebuchets each and then 1 fm of 2 t-bolts (not 3 as mentioned and which I since edited).
At my club we only play the GTS and the knights have an issue w/ the 1st turn. All their weapons are medium-ranged (45cm and Crusaders/Castellans excluded but I haven't got the models to field them yet) and so they're usually not going to have many targets to hit on the 1st turn. So it's great to have something to activate straightaway and fill that gap until some targets present themselves. Besides, as mentioned earlier, you need something to hit broken fms that have fled behind a hill and also you need some kind of solution against artillery. If you ask me the worst thing about facing Imperial Guard, the absolutely most terrible thing about it, are manticore fms. If placed in a corner I have no way of hitting them, and every time they fire it's a broken knight fm. Knights don't have planetfallers, teleporters, 30/35cm move skimmers, etc etc so the trebuchets have a big role to play. This could change and perhaps be partially remedied by having the wardens get indirect fire on their frag launchers. Let's be honest, who would take a 45cm 1 bp (no special rules) option instead of a battlecannon or a weapon w/ AA in an army w/ so little AA?
BTW, I'd also field more t-bolts if I had more models for it. Ideally something like 2 single warhounds and 3 fms of 2 t-bolts each for 1k points!

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Frogbear, it might be worth waiting until Morgan gets back before digging to deep into what needs sorting out with this list. Otherwise, what might be intended as helping out could easily be construed as trying to take over. I'm sure that's not the case, but it's easy to come to the wrong conclusions on the internet..

I'm playing them again this week, either against Marines or Orks. Up for testing a few changes, but nothing as big as giving them ATSKNF

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Nah. Believe me when I say I have absolutely no interest in the Knights. I was given the challenge so I thought I would ask on the forum where people know what they are playing. Already Carlos has provided invaluable insight. I am merely asking what-if questions. It will probably all amount to nothing, however I think an outsider's view (questions) to a list is also quite useful as it is a step outside the inside where the view 'may' be limited.

If people think that I am doing anything past what I write, then they need to stop reading between the lines. There is nothing there.

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There are 2 questions about knights I have at the moment though:
1 - are they too tough? Small fm sizes and lack of tricks of course, but still it's an army that almost completely ignores AP and is all 4+ RA. In my 4 or 5 games so far I've never had the feeling of being wiped out. Stuff broke and it's hard to rally, but I was never getting many fms completely taken off board.
2 - can they be beaten by another assault army? In other words, if they play to their strengths and the other assault army also plays to its strength, are knights beatable?

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Carlos

My next question to you (as you seem to be getting the games in with the list), is what are your opponent's thoughts? You Ninja'd me!

As an opponent myself, I thought that they had too many activations for what they were. When you get past the whole 4+ RA and the 4+ Invulnerable Save on BM due to Indomitable (the latest iteration that I think you are playing), they have the weakness of blocking each other's LoS and their (hopefully) low numbers per formation and the 2+ Initiative.

I feel that the Air force and LV based AA are merely there to provide activations and in doing so (yet not limited to), they are not really in theme with how I picture the Knights.

The LV AA (if it stays) should not be able to garrison IMO, and should even be forced to maybe set up on a table edge much like a Blitz objective. The aircraft are more a factor that I have really read no literature that saw aircraft and Knights in the same scene (please provide the book name/s if I am wrong). I would rather see masses of INF troopers and possibly transports supporting the knights rather than cheap uncharacteristic Imperial Fighters and LV AA that do not exist. Seeing that cultures usually have weapons to protect against their own technology standards, I would not even flinch at INF units that had a little MW, Lance or a supporting TK attack.

The above are just some of the things that bug me about the Knights - the most being the activation count being so high. Hence the suggestion on the 25 point increases to at least peg a 10 activation force down to 9 activations.

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