On the Baron/BTS question, this has been done with other lists such as the Barren Siege Masters and Dark Eldar with the Supreme Commander being linked to the BTS. It has the right sort of feel with these lists and it feels right to me with this list.

_________________
_________________
www.epic-uk.co.uk - home of the UK Epic tournament scene
NetEA NetERC Xenos Lists Chair
NetEA Ork + Feral Ork + Speed Freak Champion

Please forgive the following, I am *very* late to this debate. I understand some of the reasoning behind moving from DC1 to DC2 which simplifies and streamlines the list, but am less sure of the costs and power of of the Knight units compared with other WE. These do seem a bit excessive now, even though there are inbuilt weaknesses to their use.

Some 'uneducated' thoughts:-

• Compared with Shadowswords, EoV, WarHounds and other similar units and taking 2/3 of the relevant costs as a guideline, the cost of a DC2 knight unit probably ought to be in the range of 140-160, so 90 for each extra unit is far too cheap and a formation of three should be around 400 as a bare minimum.
  
  
• Following the same argument for the Baron, 200 for an extra DC2 unit with the SC character is equally cheap and probably ought to be around 250.
  
  
• The Errants, Lancers and Paladins are faster than most and the others better armed than most equivalents. Perhaps the ranges of the weaponry could be toned down a fraction to 75cm for the Quake and 60cm for the Battlecannon?
  
  
• Having a Lance described as a 'FF' weapon just niggles a bit, though using this in engagement only is a neat trick. Using the Rough Rider model does seem appropriate - Infiltrate with CC EA(+1) FS weapon. Perhaps this could be applied to the Lancer whilst dropping the speed to 25cm? If you do adopt this, I suggest giving the Lancer a different weapon from the others for clarity?
  
  
• I do agree with the thought that one of the EA Lance weapons should be dropped given the increase in DC. As other have said, currently even a three strong formation gives out 12 dice per assault, and their small numbers makes 'clipping' very easy. With the cheap upgrades, 4 or 5 strong formations are much, much more formidable and 16/20 dice assaults with FS MW weapons much more fearsome . . .

Here was my thoughts with regards to pricing:

3 Baneblades can take the following on average:
36 regular hits
21 crossfire hits
18 MW hits
13.5 MW corssfire hits
9 points of TK damage
9 points of TK damage in a crossfire

and dish out the following on average:
@75 - 2 AP or AT hits
@45 - 3 AP or 2.5 AT, and 2 AT hits
@30 - 5 AP or 4 AT, 2 AT and 3 AP hits
@FF - 4.5 hits

3 Paladins can take the following on average
18 regular hits
9 crossfire hits
12 MW hits
8 MW corssfire hits
12 points of TK damage
6 points of TK damage in a crossfire

and dish out the following on average:
@75 - 1.5 AP or AT hits
@45 - 1.5 AP or AT hits
@30 - 1.5 AP or AT hits
@FF - 2 hits (1 FS on the charge)
@cc - 1.5 MW hits

Defense-wise, 3 Paladins are about 70% of 3 Baneblades when counting TK hits (if you don't count them they're about 57%).

Offense-wise, it's 50% given those numbers.

Other things to take into account would be +10cm move, Walker, and the +1 to engage and rally. Given all that, I thought 60% of what Baneblades cost is fair. A 25 point adjustment is possible, but a 100 is a little over the top given that breakdown.

All this takes a back seat to the actual playtesting though, have you had a chance to play with/against them yet? 300 for 3 feels pretty good in our group, and we've had a dozen games with them at this point. They're great in assaults and they despise crossfires.

I'm still leery on the Custodians, the Lancers don't need the Shock Lance though. The Power Lance will remain, SM/TL fluff and rules had it hitting in assaults at range (15cm) before everyone else. I think FF FS fits that perfectly.

_________________
Dave

Blog

NetEA Tournament Pack Website

Squats 2019-10-17

And I was thinking of Warhound, Revenants, Eldar EoV, ShadowSwords etc (rather than just the BaneBlade) and comparing them with all the knights in general - which either have the same or similar armour and similar speeds / ranged weaponry, so would be much closer when using the comparisons you presented . . . though there are also obvious differences LoL .

For example, as a DC3, the Baron would be +10cm, have 3x 75cm shots and have 4+ in both FF and CC as well as an additional EA over that available for the SC character, all for +100. This seems a bit OTT, and I merely suggest the others also seem slightly undercosted as well.

And no, I have not had the chance to test them in this DC2 incarnation. However I was also thinking of this recent report, even though the results were somewhat skewed by a poor understanding of the knight's weaknesses and poor play/luck etc. Here, 4x and 5x unit formations are evidently significantly better than 3x unit formations, hence my query regarding the 90 point upgrade costs.

Hmmm, i want to start a 3000 Point list with a List and have my first 1000 Points (minigeddon) painted.

Most of the lBatraps i see only Knights and Tunderbolts. Are the others choices so bad, that nobody want them to use?

And the Wardens looks so..... unuseful. They got nothing, what another Formation can dio better.

I've purposely tested the Knights only as I like the idea of an all Knight force. Plus, they're what needs testing the most (all the guard stuff is pretty close to IG and SM state/cost-wise).

Can't comment on the Wardens, as I haven't played in any of the games here where they've been used.

_________________
Dave

Blog

NetEA Tournament Pack Website

Squats 2019-10-17

I've been using a formation of 3 AA wardens in all my games so far, I really like the models, so I make use of them - however I do feel that as the only serious ground-based AA in the whole list, the fact that they are really slow and have a range of only 30cm with their missile launchers means that my opponents planes are always able to circumvent them with ease. Perhaps a range increase to 45cm for the missiles would help make them feel more worthwhile?

_________________
Worship the immortal Emperor, for without Him we are nothing.

I agree with the above suggestion, 45cm AA shots on the Wardens would actally make me consider using them now and then. Now they're not worth their points.

_________________
https://epic40ksweden.wordpress.com/

"You have a right to be offended" - Steve Hughes
"Your feelings are hurting my thoughts" - Aron Flam

There'd be little reason to take any of the other Warden variants with 45cm missile launcher shots. The list's AA is pretty solid at the moment between the AA Guns and TBolts too. I'd be more inclined to drop the price if needed.

I've had 5 games to date with 2.1 (and 2-3 bat reps that I've neglected to post). At this point I'm thinking the following for 2.2. I'd like to put 2.2 up for approval once we get 18 batreps.

Here's what I'm thinking so far, your thoughts?

Knight Household to 325 points, extra Knights to 100 points each
Custodian Household to 375 points
Lancer Household to 325 points, extra Knights to 100 points each
Warden Household to 275 points, extra Knights to 85 points each
Rough Rider Platoon to 150 points for 6

Baron and Lancer loose the Shock Lance

_________________
Dave

Blog

NetEA Tournament Pack Website

Squats 2019-10-17

What justifications are you using for the above changes? Would be good to know your thoughts on your reasons behind the changes.

_________________
Worship the immortal Emperor, for without Him we are nothing.

I will endeavour to put up a bat-rep soon too, but it's difficult to find the time with my work commitments :/

_________________
Worship the immortal Emperor, for without Him we are nothing.

I haven't lost a game yet with a straight Knight list, hence the point increases.

Three people have mentioned the Wardens being lack luster, so I decreased them.

Lancers and Baron with Power AND Shock Lances are over powered. This has been mentioned by people here, and our group feels the same.

Tiny-Tim made note of cheap activations with the Rough Riders. 150 points for 6 is well playtested in the IG list, so I went back to that.

_________________
Dave

Blog

NetEA Tournament Pack Website

Squats 2019-10-17

Even though it will probably result in one or two fewer activations, I'm okay with your suggested points changes. I'd rather see a points decrease for the Warden, rather than a stats increase. I think the stats are fine as they are. I'm okay with dropping Shock Lance for the Lancer and Baron, too.

_________________
"I don't believe in destiny or the guiding hand of fate." N. Peart

I dont think that 3 Paladins are worth 325. The Knight Errants do.. The Paladin is worse in the Assault. Ok, the Paladin have the Battlecanon but finally the best place for a Knight is the Assault.
Why not:

Knight Paladin Household 300 Ponts, extra Knight Paladins to 90 points each
You can upgrade any Paladins for 10 Points to Knight Errant each


I got in my first Game (on Sunday) 3 Formations of them and my Enemy was impressed by the firepower. But his main problem was the option to chose MW or BP shots.
I think 375 are a good choice. Or maybe split their Weapons? MW-Shots für Crausaderss as Tankkiller and BP-Shoots for the Castellan.



Their stats are (my opinion)...ähmm..not very useful...everything the Wardens could do, other Formations could do a lot of better.
AA? = Cheap Thunderbolts, cheap AA-Guns
Tank killer (Vanquisher) = Paladins, Custodian, Knights Errant/Lancer Assaults,
Infanterie Killer = Custodian, Knights Assaults
whay should i spent Points, even 275, if i can get for +100 a flexible Tank/Infantery Killer and FF-Knight-Formation? For 3 AT+2/AP+4 Shots? 30cm AA or 3 Demolisher/6 +5 AP Shots...?

Let them by 300P Points:

For Knight only List it would be Fun to take Wardens with better AA-Fire like 45 cm (Remove the Multilaser or put an autocanon instead). With them a Knight only List without Thunderbolts (imperial Navy Stuff) would be possible.
Or maybe a Warden with Demolisher and a Heavy Flamer with +4AP (2x5+AP?) Ignore Cover + FF Ignore Cover. This would give the Knight Player a Formation to wipe out fortfied Infantery Formations.

And instead a Vanquisher a rapid firing Battlecanon (2x +4AP/AT)?. This would give them more stationary Firpower, not good as Custodian, but 75 Points cheaper.

I think with this options you can vary alot


Jeah...