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[OLD] Knight World 2.1

 Post subject: Re: Knight World 2.1
PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:37 am 
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The only thing i disagree with is the increase of points for Household Knights. They should be kept at 300 + 90 for each, they're not owepowered for their cost. The rest looks great!

I'v done 3 battles, won 2 and lost 1. This list is my absolute favourite list and i'll make it top priority to test it (my new found love of Nurgle CSM will have to wait).

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 Post subject: Re: Knight World 2.1
PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 11:48 pm 
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Quote:
Wardens- I have not used yet and never will, since there something else in the list that does the job better and more effective. The other option is to drop the unit from the list... Because once the titans are back in a Knights list you won see the warden at all on the table IMHO.

Thats not a reason to remove the Wardens, the backbone of the Defences of a Knight World, iits a reason to rethink their abilities and their Task in a Knight World Army List.

Titans are just Allies, Wardens are a typical Knight Unit.


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 Post subject: Re: Knight World 2.1
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:14 pm 
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Even if you rethink the Warden stat wise, it will mean a increase in points to cover the extra ability it gains.

Ähmm..not compulsory. In the Moment are the Wardens not worth their Points. A change of stats AND increas of Points would not make them better. so..why should the do this?

Quote:
So it still means I have units that do the job better and at better speed and maybe at the same or better price.

See above

Quote:
As for the backbone of the defence, they get one mention in a white dwarf and nothing else after that.
Thats right...in the WD 126 they protect the Keep.
Hmmm...wait a minute..is the Army List not a Knight World PDF-List?

In Titans Legions they talked about a Crusade Army with Knight Support (Wardens normally not leave their Keep)...but i think the Crusade Knights get another List.

Quote:
Well if you rethink its roll in the Knights force, then want does it become? The main AA unit ? so does that mean that the towed AA unit get dropped, so the list is not top heavy with AA choice???

Nope, but a 3rd good Choice.. I like the Idea to deploy a real 100% Knight only List. The 30 cm are not enough to cover enough Space. With 45 cm AA the Warden is a better choice, but not a No-Brainer..

-Its still a 300 Points Formation
-they take a Support Household Slot.

And why should i drop the AA-Guns? Maybe both had the same Task but they are very different (stationary, weak armoured, cheap vs. mobile, heavy armoured, expensive). That give the player much opportunity to build different Lists.

Quote:
Does it become the a mobile artillery that can take a beating, and have about a 60 to 90 cm indirect range?

Maybe, but i think they can never be better than the Custodian+Howitzer.

.i tought more like this:

Warden with 45cm 2x +5AA/+5AP/+6AT Anti Air Missile Launcher (Anti Air Warden)
(Optional) 45cm 1x +5AP/+6AT Auto Cannon

Warden with 30cm 1BP, Disrupt or IC Assault Gun (Anti-Infantery Warden)
(Optional) 15cm 1x AP5 IC Heavy Flamer (Give FF IC?)

Warden with 75cm 2x +4AP/+4AT Rapid Fire Battlecanon (Anti Tank Warden)

or something other cool thing..(Sniperbattlecannon, One-Shots AT/MW-Missles, boxingMikeTysonCloseCombatWarden?)


Quote:
Titans may be just allies, but titans are going to give you more bang for your buck, then the warden unit will. In range, speed and survivability. So it no brainier that the titans are the better choice, then the warden unit. So with the warden in it current state, it has a 100% chance of not been chosen, if titans are in the list.


I am not interested in Titans for "MORE BANG for my BUCKS" and i hate No Brainer Choices.
I want a PDF-Knights list with Knights which are capable to defend their world by their own and without Imperial Navy and Titan Allies.

And if Titans are a better choice as the Knights (maybe not only Wardens....), i think something is wrong with the List....

Titans are nice, no doubt, but they should be the special feature in a Knight Crusade List, of course withouit Wardens....

Quote:
I'm just putting option on the table, which should be done when testing. Dave will have finally say on the warden issue....

Jep...

puh..know my fingers and my Head hurts....


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 Post subject: Re: Knight World 2.1
PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 6:51 am 
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As i stated before becore, making the range of the AA shots increase to 45cm would really help the wardens! Right now they could cost 200points and i still wouldnt take them.

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 Post subject: Re: Knight World 2.1
PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 12:38 pm 
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Still only working on the theory side - preparing for Britcon, playtesting Squats & (soon) AMTL along with a nice little brake have pushed back this list in my priorities.

However Dave's proposed changes have caused me to drop a formation of Wardens and replace them with Thunderbolts in my Knight focused army.

1 Knight Household - 3x Errant/Paladin - Baron
2 Knight Household - 3x Errant/Paladin
3 Knight Household - 3x Errant/Paladin
4 Knight Household - 3x Errant/Paladin
5 Custodian Household - 3x Castellan/Crusader & Seneschal
6 Custodian Household - 3x Castellan/Crusader & Seneschal
7 Custodian Household - 3x Castellan/Crusader & Seneschal
8 Thunderbolts
9 Thunderbolts

I am of the opinion that I would like to see the list as viable for primarily Knights as much as possible, this would allow the more general (IG) units to be dropped. Testing will then show if there are enough activations in this 3k list to work or not.

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 Post subject: Re: Knight World 2.1
PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 8:14 pm 
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Hmm, why not giving the Warden 45 cm Range with his AA-Launcer? Would be nice and then it's worth 300 points.


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 Post subject: Re: Knight World 2.1
PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 10:36 pm 
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I agree!

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 Post subject: Re: Knight World 2.1
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 5:54 pm 
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I agree too, but i think thats not enough for Wardens


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 Post subject: Re: Knight World 2.1
PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 6:09 am 
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I can see where you guys are coming from, but honestly, I haven't found Wardens to be nearly as useless as the sentiment seems to be here.

For context, I tend to keep a trio hanging back as a Blitz guard formation, in range to provide coverage/interfere with flight plans for attacks on my Crusaders/Castellans. The combined 20cm move and 30cm range gives you a reasonably wide engagement sphere for goal-tending an objective without having to resort to a double, and the massed fire from an often-overlooked (and therefore unsuppressed) Warden formation is usually enough to intercept wide-ranging Raptor/Assault Marine or Land Speeder formations and break them.

I can see how pushing them to 45cm would make them a "better" AA unit, but they're more than just a dedicated AA platform. I mean, yes, you're going to have problems getting board-wide coverage if someone's taking multiple squadrons of Marauders/Hell Talons and going hunting for your Custodian Households, but with DC2 you've got 10cm of coherency between Knights, giving you potentially an 80cm wide AA net. Yeah, you won't shoot down a Thunderhawk, but three Wardens aren't going to shoot down a Thunderhawk anyhow.

I'm not saying you guys are wrong, I'm just saying that I feel like I'm getting my points' worth out of my Wardens when I field them, and that you can't really just pidgeonhole them into a "dedicated AA" role. Keep them mobile and aggressively hunting deep-ranging jump infantry and light vehicles, and you'll see a lot more value for your Wardens. Just my $0.02. Feel free to tell me I'm wrong :)

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 Post subject: Re: Knight World 2.1
PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 8:48 am 
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New battle report up: viewtopic.php?f=84&t=27952

More voming soon...

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 Post subject: Re: Knight World 2.1
PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:05 pm 
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new battle report up: http://taccmd.tacticalwargames.net/view ... 34#p532134

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 Post subject: Re: Knight World 2.1
PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:31 pm 
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Thanks for the reports mordoten. To be clear, did you use all these changes?

http://taccmd.tacticalwargames.net/view ... 00#p530400

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 Post subject: Re: Knight World 2.1
PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2014 2:57 am 
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Nope, i played household knights as 300points and all extra knights i paid 90 for so that was a mistake, everything else was used.

I really think that you should kerp the household knights at 300 though.

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