[Bio-Titans] Regen and other... |
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Markconz
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Post subject: [Bio-Titans] Regen and other...  Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 9:18 pm |
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| Quote (nealhunt @ 02 Nov. 2005 (13:27)) | Markconz: ?We seem to be working off different assumptions.
I had assumed that any regeneration would also come with a reduction in armor saves, as 3+RA is unworkable, imho. ?If the armor isn't changing, it won't matter anyway.
If it is reduced, that helps SMs far more than anything related to regeneration will inhibit them. ?That achieves the results you want, though the extent to which it is tempered will depend on the convention.
Conversely, WE-hunting forces won't benefit from the reduced armor because they are already using MW/TK, but they will definitely be impeded by the regeneration. ?Again, any regeneration system achieves your stated goals and only the extent of the effect is in question. |
Actually I just assumed we are changing to 4+ RA (and maybe even 5+ RA for flyers) 
Also I would argue that 'any regeneration system' does not achieve the goals of practically increaisng toughness against TK MW enemies.
The 'extent' of regeneration you talk about as being the only issue, is not that simple. To try to explain what I have already said in previous posts in another way, (if you know some basic stats terms), when examining effects of the FW system and 40k system, there is an interaction effect (against different opponents) as well a main effect of regeneration power.
This interaction effect is the problem. We find the FW system is skewed in power against armies which already have problems with the bio-titans (a completely unintended effect we don't want), and skewed in favour of armies which don't have problems with bio-titans (the opposite of what we desire).
Conversely the 40k system just gives a generic boost against everything.
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nealhunt
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Post subject: [Bio-Titans] Regen and other... Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:45 pm |
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Markconz: I've taken almost 4x the number of points of marines versus a Nid biotitan with every formation taking multiple turns of fire and/or assault and/or supporting assault and been obliterated. That was not due primarily to bad die rolls.
Regeneration would have made a difference of 1-2 DC at most, regardless of which mechanic was used (the encounter included 2 end phases). A difference in armor saves would have made a difference of 5-6DC.
I completley understand your reasoning about interaction and I agree in principal, but that effect is definitely second-order when looking at the balance versus non-TK armies.
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Neal
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ragnarok
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Post subject: [Bio-Titans] Regen and other... Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 11:29 pm |
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I have to admitt that I thought that the biotitans had already all gone to 4+RA. Should really read the fine print on the data sheet.
Nealhunt. I'm surprised that you assaulted a bio-titan with marines. I assume you FFed it rather than letting it into BtB.
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Tyranid air marshal
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nealhunt
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Post subject: [Bio-Titans] Regen and other... Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 11:59 pm |
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Of course I didn't CC. "Assault" includes FF, and that's all I used.
I'm not completely daft. 
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Neal
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Markconz
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Post subject: [Bio-Titans] Regen and other... Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 3:02 am |
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| Quote (nealhunt @ 02 Nov. 2005 (20:45)) | | I completley understand your reasoning about interaction and I agree in principal, but that effect is definitely second-order when looking at the balance versus non-TK armies. |
Yes, but I am not much worried about the non-Tk army effects (though I may have given that impression because I still think it is worth mentioning), more so the TK armies. The non TK army issue in comparison is a minor problem that happens to occur with the FW rules. If we choose the 40k rule option, this provides better protection against TK armies, and the minor annoyance of the non TK army effect is avoided as well. Therefore it seems sensible to me, that all other things beign equal we should chooose the 40k rule over the other options we are examining.
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ragnarok
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Post subject: [Bio-Titans] Regen and other... Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 9:56 am |
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I'm sorry I've just realised that I have no idea what the FW rule are  . Can someone please enlighten me.
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ragnarok
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Post subject: [Bio-Titans] Regen and other... Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 10:51 am |
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Wow someone else thinks like me. ?Scary.  .
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Tyranid air marshal
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ragnarok
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Post subject: [Bio-Titans] Regen and other... Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 12:52 pm |
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Okay my stats isn't that good but I want to try to run this anyway. ?Pointing out mistakes in my working is encouraged ? . ?Basically I'm looking at the realative % chance of a Heirophant healing under the two main propsed systems. ?ie number of D6 rolled is equal to either DC remaining (A) or DC lost (B). ?I'll be comparing the lost of 2 and 4DC
First of all the combinations of rolling 2 dice
there are 10 ways to roll a single 6 and 1 way to roll double 6, with a total number of combinations being 36. ?This works out as 28% and 2.8% respectivly.
For rolling 4 dice there are 500 ways of rolling one 6 (39%), 150 ways of rolling two sixes (12%), 20 ways of rolling three 6s (2%), and one way of rolling four 6s (0.1%).
4 DC remaining
Version A
The heirophant has a 39% chance of recovering 1 DC and 14% chance of recovering both DC.
Version B
The heirophant has a 28% chance of recovering 1 DC and 2.8% chance of recovering both DC.
2 DC remaining
Version A
The heirophant has a 28% chance of recovering 1 DC and 2.8% chance of recovering 2 DC.
Version B
The heirophant has a 38% chance of recovering 1 DC, 12 % chance of recovering 2 DC, 2% of recovering 3DC and a very slight chance of recovering both.
Overall chance
With 2D6 the chance of recovering any damage is about 30%
With 4D6 the chance is 53%.
Thus surly it is best that version A is used since the number of DC recovered is less. ?It has a 53% chance of recovering 2DC when at 4DC and 30% of recovering DC when at 2DC. ?Rather than proposal B which gives a heavily wounded Heirophant 53% chance of recovering damage, Thus making it hard for non TK armies to finish it off.
Ps. ?Sorry for the long rambling post, hope someone can understand it.
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Tyranid air marshal
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nealhunt
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Post subject: [Bio-Titans] Regen and other... Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 4:53 pm |
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Markconz: Fair enough. Mechanically I don't think it makes enough difference to fight over. The difference in one system over the other over the course of a game is not likely to be more than 1-2DC on even the largest beasties.
For style, I think that serious damage impeding regeneration makes more sense - more "realistic" if you will, at least for the effect it's intended to simulate. IRL, as wounds become more serious they take a lot longer to heal. That's all.
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Neal
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ragnarok
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Post subject: [Bio-Titans] Regen and other... Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 1:25 pm |
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After spendiong the morning imersed in excel spreadsheets. I've come to the conlsuoin that either 1DC or half DC (starting, current or lost) is the best option. Since rolling 6 or 7 dice gibes about a 70% chance or reciering some DC. This, I think, is too powerful.
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Lord Inquisitor
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Post subject: [Bio-Titans] Regen and other... Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 12:39 am |
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| Quote (Hena @ 01 Nov. 2005 (16:52)) | Attacks.
1. DC + 1 for 4x Gargantuan Claws
2. DC + 4 for 4x Gargantuan Claws
I think that 2 is better. Since so it is in everything else. Eg. Ork Gargant with 3x soopa guns gets 6BP instead of 2BP. And Shadowsword with 2x Heavy Bolters gets 2 dice to shoot not one. |
I fail to see the controversy here.
Surely "4x extra attack (+1)" means 4 extra attacks?
I may be missing something here (like a large part of my brain), but what's the problem?
Lord =I=
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ragnarok
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Post subject: [Bio-Titans] Regen and other... Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 1:31 am |
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I think the problem steamed from the Haruspex having 4x scything talons, assault weapon.
People wanted to know if it got extra attacks. It gets a bit blurry after that.
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Tyranid air marshal
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Lord Inquisitor
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Post subject: [Bio-Titans] Regen and other... Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 1:38 am |
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Well, as I've said before, I think the best idea is to let go of the idea of making each weapon consistent, and put a note in the 'bio-weapons' bit that says each profile should be taken on its own merits. So hormagaunts just have an increased CC for scything talons, tyranid warriors get +1A, and hive tyrants get +1A MW.
But the list is pretty clear on which units get how many attacks, despite the nomenclature thing.
Lord =I=
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