Tactical Command
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Hive Fleet Dagon v4.71 and original F-ERC lists
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=32946		 Page 5 of 10
Author:  atension [ Sun Oct 21, 2018 7:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hive Fleet Dagon v4.51 and original F-ERC lists
Mrdiealot wrote:
Looking good, but you can't have Haruspexes in Mycetic Spores tho. Mixing in Biovores in the Minor Swarms like that is interesting, I imagine they become quite resilient and flexible.


Yeah in our meta staple formations with good flexability is often very important especially with the more specialist lists like tyranids. So many times ive seen activations go to waste since the dice often don't support your carefully laid out plans.
Author:  Mrdiealot [ Wed Oct 24, 2018 3:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hive Fleet Dagon v4.51, 4.6b and original F-ERC lists
New beta version added
Author:  atension [ Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hive Fleet Dagon v4.51, 4.6b and original F-ERC lists
Interesting additions. A few things though;
1. The nest swarms are much less favourable than the harridans or the heirodules though for the same price.
2. Just wondering why the change to the upgrade requirements for the major and nexus swarms?
3. Pricing on the infestation swarms seems odd. 1 trygon prime for 150 points, two more trygons for 100 points?
Author:  Mrdiealot [ Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hive Fleet Dagon v4.51, 4.6b and original F-ERC lists
atension wrote:
Interesting additions. A few things though;
1. The nest swarms are much less favourable than the harridans or the heirodules though for the same price.


Can't say I agree. The Nest Swarm gives you a fearless WE with 4++ armour that can garrison by an objective, and bring with it Biovores and/or Dactylis. That's pretty darn useful.

Quote:
2. Just wondering why the change to the upgrade requirements for the major and nexus swarms?


The Major Swarm became too expensive compared to the Minor Swarm, and the Nexus Swarm became too unwieldy.

Quote:
3. Pricing on the infestation swarms seems odd. 1 trygon prime for 150 points, two more trygons for 100 points?


The normal Trygon isn't fearless and have worse save than the Trygon Prime. On top of that you have the cost of the activation itself (50 points) and some sort of cost for the formation having tunneling. I think 150 points is quite reasonable, but we'll see how it performs compared to the Ravener Alpha version.
Author:  Mrdiealot [ Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hive Fleet Dagon v4.6 and original F-ERC lists
Post updated to v4.6. I think we're getting really close to a version that's worth pushing towards approval, but we might need a test-game or two to be really sure. If anyone spots any abusive combos, please point 'em out!
Author:  atension [ Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hive Fleet Dagon v4.6 and original F-ERC lists
Looking good. Hope to get some testing in soon.
Author:  mordoten [ Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hive Fleet Dagon v4.6 and original F-ERC lists
Yes, this list looks great! Good work!
Author:  atension [ Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hive Fleet Dagon v4.6 and original F-ERC lists
Had a quick 2000 point game against some Eldar took the following list:

Incompertus, 2000 POINTS 
Hive Fleet Dagon (4.6 TCMD forum) 
================================================== 
MAJOR SWARM (2-4 INSTINCTIVE SWARMS) [350] 
Dagon Overlord Shrike (Wings), 3 Tyranid Warrior Shrikes (Wings), 2 Gargoyles (4 Dagon Gargoyles)
MINOR SWARM (2-4 INSTINCTIVE SWARMS) [225] 
2 Tyranid Warriors, Gaunts (4 Termagaunts), Biovores (4 Biovores), Zoanthrope
MINOR SWARM (2-4 INSTINCTIVE SWARMS) [225] 
2 Tyranid Warriors, Gaunts (4 Termagaunts), Biovores (4 Biovores), Zoanthrope
HARASSER SWARM (1-2 INSTINCTIVE SWARMS) [200] 
Harridan, Gargoyles (4 Dagon Gargoyles)
ATTACK SWARM (1-2 INSTINCTIVE SWARMS) [275] 
Barbed Hierodule Prime, Hierodule (1 Barbed Hierodule)
ATTACK SWARM (1-2 INSTINCTIVE SWARMS) [275] 
Barbed Hierodule Prime, Hierodule (1 Barbed Hierodule)
MAJOR SWARM (2-4 INSTINCTIVE SWARMS) [300] 
Hive Tyrant, 2 Tyranid Warriors, 2 Gaunts (4 Termagaunts), Mycetic Spore // May transport Termagaunts, Hormagaunts, Biovores, Carnifex, Raveners, Hive Tyrants, Dagon Overlord, Tyranid Warriors, Zoanthropes // Transported units may not have Wings, Zoanthrope
BIO-VESSEL [150] 
Razorfiend (May carry 2 Mycetic Spores including cargo)

Played against Eldar Biel-Tan

With two artillery formations (void and night spinners), shinning spears, avatar, rangers, guardians and falcon formations.

The space ship was critical for deploying the major swarm in my opponents deployment managed to wipe out the night spinners and a group og guardians effectively. But the synapse were sniped off fairly easily by the falcons And the formation fell apart. The biovores were great at dropping his popcorn ranger formations which helped mitigate his activation advantage. The void hurt me a lot. The mediocre armour on the hierodiles saw them go down quick. One got caught by the shinning spears and melted. The other; one round from the void and then follow up fire from the falcons dropped the prime then remaining on couldnt rally. The harridan failed two activations and didnt do much. In the end it was a 3-0 victory for the eldar. They out matched me in speed and firepower. I find the formations do reasonably well when at full strength but exponentially lose potency after losing a few stands, the AT fire and losing the synapse is so very painful. It didnt come up this time but i worry about the losing alpha strike ability when facing an opponent who also has a spaceship. The 1 strategy rating is painful.

The synapse rules where you cant contest, capture or count table half when missing synapse is a HUGE negative for the army especially combined with the "shoot the big ones" (warriors becoming LVs). Lower FF ability when facing assault skimmers, All very fluffy but I'm not sure that the strengths of the list make up for the major weaknesses. Dont get me wrong the expendable gaunts make assaults quite favorable (when initiated by the nid player) but thier crap armour makes them a detriment when the nid formations are engaged (unless you are very good at maximizing cover saves).

Two Suggestions
1. regeneration comes back for the WE's. They came off as extremely MW and TK vulnerable. I dont think the dominatrix would see the board at that hefty price tag being rather frail.
2. In its current form to make up for the mediocre shooting, and armour and big racial detrimemts should add very cheap gaunt formations as the Nids should have heavy activation advantage in my opinnion. Maybe make the minor swarms 1-4 requirement.

Edit: could be just the Eldar match up thats particularly difficult to handle also.
Author:  Mrdiealot [ Sat Oct 27, 2018 10:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hive Fleet Dagon v4.6 and original F-ERC lists
Thanks for testing the list!

I notice you didn't pick any Genestealers or Lictors. In my experience Genestealers are critical for getting more activations, and they can also hold objectives no matter how beat up they are. Lictors are great for messing up the opponent in turn 2, forcing him to deal with them instead of something else.

Likewise, the Major Swarm you dropped was quite fragile. I would have taken some Carnifexes in it as well.

I've opted for more DC on the WE instead of Regen, which I think makes them quite usefult in the test-games I've had with them. I think the Dominatrix is alright, but you really need to bring with it 2 Trygons that can act as shields against shooting.

It could be that the Hierodules and the Attack Swarm isn't good enough compared to the other Secondary Swarms. I'll have to think about that. One option is lowering their cost, but a bit concerned about how a very War Engine-heavy list would perform.
Author:  Mrdiealot [ Sat Oct 27, 2018 10:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hive Fleet Dagon v4.6 and original F-ERC lists
I'll also add that the flying swarms are really fragile, and I usually take some sort of AV in them, either Harpies or Haruspexes.
Author:  atension [ Sat Oct 27, 2018 10:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hive Fleet Dagon v4.6 and original F-ERC lists
Yeah i was thinking that too, but it was a trade off for activations. Beef up the fewer activations would make mine a little tougher but also play into the eldar strengths with activation advantage and supporting fire. Wanted to try a more shooty list this time.

Yeah I like lictors and think genestealers can be good but against eldar... skimmers with good FF make them useless. Not to mention you are always going second for the lictor TP drop, have a 1/3 activation failure, and made worse by the slower movement having fewer options for cover.
Author:  Mrdiealot [ Sat Oct 27, 2018 11:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hive Fleet Dagon v4.6 and original F-ERC lists
Against eldar I think taking more Biovores and Dactylis would have made a difference. The Nest Swarm is really good at getting them into the battlefield.

But lists with tonnes of Skimmers are a bit difficult. I usually think engaging them rather than shooting at them is the better strategy.
Author:  atension [ Sat Oct 27, 2018 11:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hive Fleet Dagon v4.6 and original F-ERC lists
Mrdiealot wrote:
Against eldar I think taking more Biovores and Dactylis would have made a difference. The Nest Swarm is really good at getting them into the battlefield.

But lists with tonnes of Skimmers are a bit difficult. I usually think engaging them rather than shooting at them is the better strategy.


I tried for moderately shooty but still combat effective. Not sure if i could fit dactylis in that list and kept the drop. The mvp for the Nid side that game was definitely the small swarms with the biovores. I find if Im 2+ activations behind my opponents (especially with an assault focus army) I'm in trouble from the start. I think that the drop is necessary to even up the odds against long range artillery. This was also a smaller game so losing activations (or failing) was even more detrimental.

Im not sold on hive nests. They are immobile. Yeah they have synapse and really good armour and can garrison. They aren't a bad choice but they are very expensive when you add dactylis. 325pts.for an immobile blitz guard, has some perks but a big investment for limited versitility. Ill give them.a try though.

New suggestion: meiopic spores gain self planetfall? This would mitigate the odds if getting your spaceship pushed out of the round you want to activate considering the 1 strategy rating. Also save on expensive spaceship single activation (with 1/3 failure rate, though you would assume a spaceship would have a synapse).
Author:  Mrdiealot [ Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hive Fleet Dagon v4.61 and original F-ERC lists
Self Planetfall would be a pretty radical solution. Not sure I'd take a space-ship in a 2000point game to begin with, but rather take tunnelers instead.

Bumped the list to v4.61, making the Barbed Hierodule slightly better (bringing it in line with F-ERC Tyranids 2018).
Author:  atension [ Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hive Fleet Dagon v4.61 and original F-ERC lists
Mrdiealot wrote:
Self Planetfall would be a pretty radical solution. Not sure I'd take a space-ship in a 2000point game to begin with, but rather take tunnelers instead.


I think I would have been worse off without it considering the artillery. More games needed of course.

Also it should be said I like your vision for the list. Its pretty fun to play. Im in the habbit of vomitting up every idea that comes to mind when I get excited about a new army. Use what you like.
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