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Hive Fleet Dagon v3.5 and original F-ERC lists

 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon E-UK v1.5b NetEA 1.2b (F-ERC Tyranids)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:55 pm 
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Quote:
As things look now, I'll be working more on the NetEA list as that is the one which will be compatible with NetEA approval.

I'll stick to giving feedback on it then, trying to compare cost/performance values and fitness for a particular role across a single list is already brain-knotting enough, especially since all we're doing is speculation without having had the occasion of playtesting yet (or have you gotten any games with this list?).
Also, I think there's some statblocks that NetEA does better, and some that UK does.

Anyway, here's some scattered thoughts concerning the NetEA version:

    - Any reason for going back to the original french Lictor instead of the NetEA one? What I'm most concerned about is the 15cms movement. With the crappy initiative, they're already going to have a hard time not being wiped out before they act (if you're trying to use them offensively, that is).
    Also, I like them having Sniper :P

    - Summing the weaker NetEA stat-block of the Harridan to the UK/french decrease to Gargoyles' FF makes Harasser Swarms pretty lame right now. The formation lost assault capability compared to either the UK
    or the french Swarm, and that made it pretty useful as mobile infantry.

    - Not sure about the nerf to the Trygon. Also, is it intended that they've become more cost-effective than the Tyrannofexes at shielding a Dominatrix? I would have imagined the bigger, nastier creatures to better, or at least on par at that.

    - Since Carnifexes are not fearless anymore, there's no point in taking them anymore outside drop-podded Swarms, as Haruspexes cost the same for equal stats plus a ranged attack.
    Obviously fitting into Spores sort of balances out the lack of fearless, but you're taking away choice in formation composition, compared to the two units having different roles (CC focus vs more all-around usability).

    - Bad change to the Malefactors: the FF focus they had before allowed them to be more supportive of the carried INF when making full use of their movement in an assault (i.e. allowing Termagants to keep up with infiltrating Hormagaunts, while keeping outside the standard 15+15cms assault range of on foot FF INF).

    - I'm not sure about all support creatures (Biovore, Exocrine, Dactylis) going down to 15cms movement. That limits the usability (especially for Exocrines) of units that I'm already unsure how to successfully use (and you are too). I think before fiddling with their stats any more, you have to envision their role in the list.

    - What's the reason for the drop to the Barbed Tyrannofex's CC?

    - Same as above for not picking NetEA's titans.


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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon E-UK v1.5b NetEA 1.2b (F-ERC Tyranids)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:21 pm 
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Stone Dog wrote:
Any reason for going back to the original french Lictor instead of the NetEA one? What I'm most concerned about is the 15cms movement. With the crappy initiative, they're already going to have a hard time not being wiped out before they act (if you're trying to use them offensively, that is).
Also, I like them having Sniper :P


The NetEA version is super weak. It only has one attack, so will struggle to kill even weak units. And it's 15cm with Infiltrate, so not that bad.

Quote:
Summing the weaker NetEA stat-block of the Harridan to the UK/french decrease to Gargoyles' FF makes Harasser Swarms pretty lame right now. The formation lost assault capability compared to either the UK
or the french Swarm, and that made it pretty useful as mobile infantry.


The NetEA version has 3 wounds, compared to two in F-ERC. So going into CC with it was always a bit dicey. I'm generally sceptical of the Harridan, as I think it easily becomes a no-brainer.

Quote:
Not sure about the nerf to the Trygon. Also, is it intended that they've become more cost-effective than the Tyrannofexes at shielding a Dominatrix? I would have imagined the bigger, nastier creatures to better, or at least on par at that.


Simply decided that the NetEA were "good enough", and has some benefits. The Trygon Prime has 4+ RA, so it's better. Might buff it further.
Think these cheaper Trygons will do nicely as screens for the Dominatrix, I don't really think Trygons should have Infiltrate like in the E-UK list.

Quote:
Since Carnifexes are not fearless anymore, there's no point in taking them anymore outside drop-podded Swarms, as Haruspexes cost the same for equal stats plus a ranged attack.
Obviously fitting into Spores sort of balances out the lack of fearless, but you're taking away choice in formation composition, compared to the two units having different roles (CC focus vs more all-around usability).


Good points on the Carnifexes. Might make them cheaper actually (making it a point for them to be their own category!)

Quote:
Bad change to the Malefactors: the FF focus they had before allowed them to be more supportive of the carried INF when making full use of their movement in an assault (i.e. allowing Termagants to keep up with infiltrating Hormagaunts, while keeping outside the standard 15+15cms assault range of on foot FF INF).


But they have 4+ RA instead of 5+! That alone makes up for losing the FF. Means that you can have stuff sitting in the transports between turns, which is potentially super-nasty.

Quote:
I'm not sure about all support creatures (Biovore, Exocrine, Dactylis) going down to 15cms movement. That limits the usability (especially for Exocrines) of units that I'm already unsure how to successfully use (and you are too). I think before fiddling with their stats any more, you have to envision their role in the list.


The Exocrine has 20cm move and 4+ RA, and the Dactylis has 4+ RA... The Dactylis also cost 175 (!) points less than in the NetEA list.

The Biovore stats are from the french list, and since they're AA here, I'm inclined to try it out before I make them better.

Quote:
What's the reason for the drop to the Barbed Tyrannofex's CC?


It's the french stats, I'll have to try those first I think. I've made them a lot cheaper than in the french list.

Quote:
Same as above for not picking NetEA's titans.


Not sure what the question is? But I'll answer anyway: This is basically the french titans but with Reg and some changes adopted from the E-UK list. The NetEA titans have more attacks, but are each two DC less. One could potentially just buff the NetEA DC and call it a day, but I'd like to try the french titans first.

Thanks for the feedback!

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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon 1.3b NetEA, v1.5b E-UK
PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:43 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon 1.3b NetEA, v1.5b E-UK
PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:39 pm 
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Not to be a D!ck, but does EpicUK take unsolicited lists? Just curious. If not, or only if "aliens land they do" scenarios, then I'd say (re)focus on the NetEA version. If you get good traction and approved it appears they tend to pay attention for possible incorporation (with local UK adjustments) for their use (See Red Corsairs and Imperial Fists for examples).

Might save you a ton of effort. Then again, maybe not :)

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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon 1.3b NetEA, v1.5b E-UK
PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:29 am 
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Looking at the 1.31b NetEA list, I'm confused by a lot of the names. Maybe there's a purpose to this that I don't see, but as examples:
Tyranid Warrior Alpha- implies there's another type, when there's not in this list.
Nexus Zoanthrope- As above. Why add 'Nexus'?
Acro-Ravener, Acri-Gargoyles- superfluous name extensions again.
Acid Biovore, Burner Carnifex, etc.- There's only 1 type of each. Also the 'Burner Carnifex' looks to be a standard Screamer-Killer, which is an established name if you really want to add that detail.
Barbed and Scythed Tyrannofex, when it should be Heirodule? Sure in the 40k models Heirodules and Tyrannofexes are about the same size, but they're conceptually different (Heirodules should be bigger).
That flows onto the 'Siege Heirodule', which again has an unnecessary descriptor and is probably more of a Heirophant. If you're wanting to keep it as a Heirodule then the Hydraphant should be a Heirophant- why buck the established background on size/name?
'Nexus' is pretty clearly 'Synapse'- I assume that was a translation issue?
'Bio-Acid-Venom-X' is a bit overdone. Tyranids like their Bio-acid, and acidic venom is also fine, but to label nearly everything as all 3 with only the fourth word to distinguish them is awkward. While on this point- Bio-Acid spit is one of the only weapons not commonly available to 40k Raveners.

On actual factors of balance I think the list has potential. The addition of space craft has been much needed for a long time (simply for thematic purposes if not game play). I'd need to playtest it to properly assess all of the more minor changes.


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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon 1.3b NetEA, v1.5b E-UK
PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:02 am 
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jimmyzimms wrote:
Not to be a D!ck, but does EpicUK take unsolicited lists? Just curious. If not, or only if "aliens land they do" scenarios, then I'd say (re)focus on the NetEA version. If you get good traction and approved it appears they tend to pay attention for possible incorporation (with local UK adjustments) for their use (See Red Corsairs and Imperial Fists for examples).

Might save you a ton of effort. Then again, maybe not :)


The reason I've been doing this parallel work is because it's been far from obvious where the NetEA project was going to end up, and if there was even a point in trying to get anything approved. Indeed, we still don't know where all of this is going... Although things look a lot more promising now than when I started work on this list.

The intention was never to try and get anything approved with E-UK, but is rather a recognition that if NetEA fails, then Epic in Sweden would quite likely hitch its dinky wagon to the grand E-UK cart, and develop new lists with those at their core.

It didn't help matters that in the beginning getting the F-ERC list to fit with Onachus was like trying to get a square peg in a round hole. E-UK has the same DNA as the F-ERC list so it's a much more natural fit.

Until we know where this is headed, I'm going to keep both versions! But I definitely think the NetEA version has potential.

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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon 1.3b NetEA, v1.5b E-UK
PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:10 am 
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Geep wrote:
Looking at the 1.31b NetEA list, I'm confused by a lot of the names. Maybe there's a purpose to this that I don't see, but as examples:


The reason all of those names are there is because this is a variant list of the NetEA version. Wherever the stats are different, they've got different names.

Quote:
Also the 'Burner Carnifex' looks to be a standard Screamer-Killer, which is an established name if you really want to add that detail.
I'll think about it!

Quote:
Barbed and Scythed Tyrannofex, when it should be Heirodule? Sure in the 40k models Heirodules and Tyrannofexes are about the same size, but they're conceptually different (Heirodules should be bigger).


It's because the Onachus list uses the old names from the 1990ies. I'm currently trying to get that changed, but if that doesn't happen then this is the best I could do.
Quote:
That flows onto the 'Siege Heirodule', which again has an unnecessary descriptor and is probably more of a Heirophant. If you're wanting to keep it as a Heirodule then the Hydraphant should be a Heirophant- why buck the established background on size/name?
Again, because Onachus.
Quote:
'Nexus' is pretty clearly 'Synapse'- I assume that was a translation issue?
Nope. Onachus already has a Synapse Rule which is completely different. So I came up with nexus.

Quote:
'Bio-Acid-Venom-X' is a bit overdone. Tyranids like their Bio-acid, and acidic venom is also fine, but to label nearly everything as all 3 with only the fourth word to distinguish them is awkward. While on this point- Bio-Acid spit is one of the only weapons not commonly available to 40k Raveners.
The Dagon Hive fleet has a lot of this stuff tho (check the fluff), so I think it works.

Quote:
On actual factors of balance I think the list has potential. The addition of space craft has been much needed for a long time (simply for thematic purposes if not game play). I'd need to playtest it to properly assess all of the more minor changes.
You and me both! I'm excited to get this on the table. I agree the name business is a bit of a bummer, but unless something radical happens (which it might, but probably not) then this is the way it's going to be. Can't get it through approval otherwise.

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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon 1.3b NetEA, v1.5b E-UK
PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:31 pm 
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About your answers to my latest post, point taken on everything besides the Malefactors.
I’m not saying they’re useless, as you say 4+ RA armor on a transport is pretty good, but I think the French version is still the best incarnation, because a Malefactor Swarm can behave differently from a Haruspex Swarm.
I’ll try to explain why I think so. Their FF value + ranged attack makes them capable of advancing/doubling and then support a different formation in an assault (good with Termagants), and their inclusion in a formation over Haruspexes exchanges raw CC power for a greater useful assault range.
Consider that while Gaunts can assault at 35/40cm, the “natural” assault range of both Haruspex and Malefactor (as it is right now) would be 25cm, as further out in FF they’re worse than Gaunts.
The French Malefactor natural assault range would instead be 40, meshing perfectly well with the Gaunts’.

Let me also echo what Geep said about the names. To be honest, in my head I call everything by their "standard" names from the established lists.

About the new changes:
    - I dislike the 15cm movement on the Carnifexes. They cannot be used in assault-oriented Swarms anymore, unless it’s in drop-pods.
    They could theoretically be used to shield Bio-support creatures, but they’re slower, they don’t contribute anything to the offensive power of the formations, and the cost/average hits needed to kill the formation ratio is not that much better than the Bio-support’s.
    I’m not sure I’d ever take them (as shields) for 100 p.ts.
    So this greatly reduces the usage choices about them.

    - I like what you did to the Bio-support creatures. I’d also consider upping the Biovores’ movement to 20cm to get them in line with everything else.

    - The price hike per unit for the Bio-attack creatures will need to be playtested, but the upgrade being two units is way more “agile” to compose formations with.

    - Radical question, but have you considered dropping a Swarm's nexus creatures to 2 units, with a third as an upgrade? This would alleviate somewhat the "tax" you have to pay with ranged-focused formations (Biovores and Bio-support).


PS: sorry for the radio silence.

PPS: and thank you for your work.


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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon 1.3b NetEA, v1.5b E-UK
PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:48 pm 
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Mrdiealot wrote:
jimmyzimms wrote:
Not to be a D!ck, but does EpicUK take unsolicited lists? Just curious. If not, or only if "aliens land they do" scenarios, then I'd say (re)focus on the NetEA version. If you get good traction and approved it appears they tend to pay attention for possible incorporation (with local UK adjustments) for their use (See Red Corsairs and Imperial Fists for examples).

Might save you a ton of effort. Then again, maybe not :)


The reason I've been doing this parallel work is because it's been far from obvious where the NetEA project was going to end up, and if there was even a point in trying to get anything approved. Indeed, we still don't know where all of this is going... Although things look a lot more promising now than when I started work on this list.

The intention was never to try and get anything approved with E-UK, but is rather a recognition that if NetEA fails, then Epic in Sweden would quite likely hitch its dinky wagon to the grand E-UK cart, and develop new lists with those at their core.

It didn't help matters that in the beginning getting the F-ERC list to fit with Onachus was like trying to get a square peg in a round hole. E-UK has the same DNA as the F-ERC list so it's a much more natural fit.

Until we know where this is headed, I'm going to keep both versions! But I definitely think the NetEA version has potential.


cool! makes sense!

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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon 1.3b NetEA, v1.5b E-UK
PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:41 pm 
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Stone Dog wrote:

Let me also echo what Geep said about the names. To be honest, in my head I call everything by their "standard" names from the established lists.

About the new changes:
    - I dislike the 15cm movement on the Carnifexes. They cannot be used in assault-oriented Swarms anymore, unless it’s in drop-pods.
    They could theoretically be used to shield Bio-support creatures, but they’re slower, they don’t contribute anything to the offensive power of the formations, and the cost/average hits needed to kill the formation ratio is not that much better than the Bio-support’s.
    I’m not sure I’d ever take them (as shields) for 100 p.ts.
    So this greatly reduces the usage choices about them.

    - I like what you did to the Bio-support creatures. I’d also consider upping the Biovores’ movement to 20cm to get them in line with everything else.

    - The price hike per unit for the Bio-attack creatures will need to be playtested, but the upgrade being two units is way more “agile” to compose formations with.

    - Radical question, but have you considered dropping a Swarm's nexus creatures to 2 units, with a third as an upgrade? This would alleviate somewhat the "tax" you have to pay with ranged-focused formations (Biovores and Bio-support).


PS: sorry for the radio silence.

PPS: and thank you for your work.


Well, thanks for making me think about what I do to the list!

As for the rest of your comments, I'll keep them in mind, but right now it's a bit of a waiting game to see what comes out of all the discussions that are going on right now, might be some positive stuff that comes out of it.

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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon 2.0b Mixed, 1.3b NetEA, v1.5b E-UK
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:19 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon v.3 and F-ERC 2018
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:43 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon v.3 and F-ERC 2018
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 3:04 pm 
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Took the 2013 version to play a tournament yesterday. Played against Steel Legion, E-UK Dark Angels and Tau. Three draws later and I finished in the middle of the pack. Would probably have won the first game had we been able to get into turn 3. Confirmed that the original list is perfectly playable, but does need a bit of tweaking. The list I played had basically no shooting at all, but lots of WE spread throughout the list. Three units of tunnelers in the list, which might have been excessive but made turn 2 quite fun.


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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon v.3.1 and original F-ERC lists
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:17 pm 
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Yeah, thoose damn Trygons showed up everywhere!

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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon v3.2 and original F-ERC lists
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:55 am 
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