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Hive Fleet Dagon v4.71 and original F-ERC lists

 Post subject: Hive Fleet Dagon v4.71 and original F-ERC lists
PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:00 pm 
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Inspired by the F-ERC Tyranids, my take on this list is named "Hive Fleet Dagon".

There are three versions of this list; Hive Fleet Dagon, a translation of F-ERC v2018 and a translation of the 2013 version. The 2013 version is approved for tournament use in Sweden.

Hive Fleet Dagon is a mix of F-ERC list structure, stats and special rules, NetEA stats and rules, and some small things from E-UK. On top of that are some things I've dreamt up myself. Since v4, there's much more NetEA in the list than was the case previously, but it still plays mostly the same since the list structure and certain special rules are the same as before.

The two originals are obviously translated versions for those who like that and/or wants to compare.

Batreps played with v4.61
Vs Biel-Tan

Batreps played with v4.1
Vs Emperor's Children

Update 20/8 v4.1
Had a look at whether it would be possible to harmonize Hive Fleet Dagon with Onachus and Gorgon, and I think it might be doable, at least to some extent. I think the list will play mostly similar to before, but as expected there's going to be some pretty significant differences, too many to list here.

edit: v4.1 fixes some typos and changes the buff to the Hierodule Primes from better CC to Invulnerable Save.

Stuff that's definitely still in:
The "Semi-expendable" rule is now called the "Gaunts" rule, just like in FERC 2018.
Synapse Swarms that's lost all Synapse creatures can't even contest objectives.
Synapse creatures that are normally Inf are Light Vehicles
Option to double move (counts as having marched) when forced to hold

Stuff that's certainly not in:
Anything to do with Swarming.

Stuff that's got better:
-> 1+ initiative across the board, and better rallying
-> Gaunts and Dagon Raveners are expendable
-> Better Harradian stats
-> Synapse Swarms with Synapse creatures can absorb those without.
-> Malefactor got 4+ Reinforced

Stuff that's got worse:
-> Tyranid Warriors and Zoanthropes are just worse. But with all the other boosts from swapping rules, maybe that's a good thing.
-> Biovores lost AA
-> Synapse no longer includes Leader, meaning that there are very few units with Leader anywhere in the list.

All these changes obviously needs some playtesting, so we'll see how stable v4.0 turns out to be. But I think the trade-off between weaker Synapse creatures and a bunch of boosts might balance out quite well.

Update 11/10 v4.2
First game played with v4.x, so time for an update.

-> With the 1+ initiative the list has now, the "Implacable" rule (option to move twice when failing to activate) was a bit too much. It is now removed from the list.
-> The part of the Synapse rule that states "ignore -2 when rallying" proved to be very powerful in the game. This has now instead been moved to the Hive Mind Locus rule, meaning that only formations with a Dominatrix or Dagon Overlord benefits from it.
-> Dagon Dominatrix got a Bio-titan Bio-Cannon.

Update 15/10 v4.51
Did some further changes to the beta, and made it into the main version.
Quite a few changes from v4.2.

-> Nexus and Major Swarm now has 3-5 Instinctive Swarms requirement. Makes a bigger difference between the Major and Minor Swarms, which were a bit too similar before.
-> Hive Tyrant and Dagon Overlord 20cm move like in NetEA, 30cm with wings.
-> Carnifex and Trygons are now the same as in NetEA (except no fearless since they're not Synapse). Carnifex 100 points for 3, Trygons 50 points each.
-> Dagon Raveners slightly different stats, 3 for 50 points.
-> Malefactors and Dagon Haruspexes 2 for 75 points (makes more sense since Gaunts are 4 per upgrade).
-> The Infestation Swarm now cost 100 points as base when bought with Ravener Alpha, or 150 points when bought with Trygon Prime. Trygon Prime like normal Trygon but with 4+ Reinforced, Fearless (making it a pain to get rid of but still quite easy to break).
-> Max 1 Gaunts upgrade in the Infestation Swarm.
-> Attack Swarm now 1-2 Instinctive Swarms (making all Secondary Swarms 1-2), and is now more limited in the Instinctive Swarms it can take (giving it a more defined profile as a "mechanized" Swarm).
-> Barbed Hierodule's Twin Bio-Cannon more in line with how other Bio-Cannons work.
-> Max 1 Harridan per Harrasser Swarm.

edit: Bumped by +.01 after feedback:
-> Bio-Support Instinctive Swarm to 125, and can't be taken by the Minor Swarm.
-> Direct attack on Dactylis nerfed to AP5+/AT6+.
-> Max 2 Zoanthropes in Minor Swarm to make Zoanthrope Spam less of an issue.
-> Exocrine has MW in FF and better save.

Update 6/11 v4.62
Had a game against Mordoten yesterday (in which the new Nest Swarm + Dagon Dactylis ended up performing very well). There was a discussion around dropping bio-support from the Nest Swarm entirely, but since an almost identical configuration is allowed in E-UK Tyranids I think some price increases and limitations should do the trick.

-> Minor Swarm must take at least one Gaunt, Gargoyle or Biovore upgrade.
-> Minor Swarm can have 3 Zoanthropes again.

-> Named the Synapse rule "Dagon Synapse" to prevent confusion.
-> Nexus and Major Swarm back to 2-4 Instinctive Swarms.
-> Added complete Tunneling rules from E-UK Squats (can't seem to find the rule in Onachus?)

-> Raveners become Inf, but also gained the "Gaunts" rule.
-> Burrower upgrade 2 Trygons or 6 Raveners for 100.
-> No more non-tunnelers in the Infestation Swarm.

-> New Secondary Swarm and Synapse Creature: The Hive Swarm with the Hive Nest!
-> Hive Nest can garrison.
-> Hive Nest -25pts, but must take at least one Gaunt, Gargoyle or Biovore upgrade.

-> Harpies gain a 5+ AA attack within 15cm
-> Bio-Support upgrade +25pts, with either 3 Dagon Dactylis or 4 Dagon Exocrines.
-> Dagon Dactylis gain 4+ save.

edit: Bumped by +.01 after feedback:
Had another look at the Hierodules and the Attack Swarm which had some internal balance issues. While the Schythed Hierodule is quite powerful, the Barbed Hierodule was less so. The result was to boost the Barbed Hierodule back to the stats it has in F-ERC 2018 (1 extra shot on the bio-cannon and 4+ CC). Hopefully this will give it a slightly more defined role in the list.

edit 2: Bumped by +.01 due to error
The Mycetic Spore should work like a Space Marine Drop Pod, but the wording was off in its description. That's now fixed.

Update and Reboot 8/11 v4.71 (Approval Candidate Version)
After two playtest games with some more extreme lists the conclusion is that there's big exploits that need to be fixed along minor tweaks that should improve internal list balance. The goal here is to make it attractive to take things from all different parts of the list, and not just primary swarms (tho playing a pure primary swarm list will of course always be extremely possible given how flexible they are).

-> The major cheese that had to be cleaned out is the potential for a fast, tough and fairly cheap Major Swarm config with AV 4++ like Carnifex, Haruspex and Malefactors. The issue is that the Hive Tyrant can hide among the AV, so the Tyranid Warriors don't really need to be protected. To fix this the Haruspex and Malefactor has been nerfed in armour to 5++, and with worse CC. The Carnifex upgrade is also +25pts. The Major Swarm itself is also +25pts, but gets an additional Tyranid Warrior / Zoanthrope as compensation. Hopefully these things taken together will make this particular combo less potent, the Major Swarm less spam-able, and create more of a contrast between the Major Swarm and all the others.

-> The Exocrine and Dactylis upgrade seemed a bit too expensive, so it's now -25pts, but with worse save on both along with the Dactylis losing its direct attack.

-> Biovores proved to be quite effective in shielding Synapse Creatures from attack in some configurations (which goes against the spirit of the "Shoot the big ones!" sprecial rule) so they're now Inf instead of LV. In practice this makes no difference outside of targeting since LV is treated as Inf in HFD for all other purposes anyway.

-> The Gaunt upgrade wasn't good enough compared to the Gargoyles upgrade, so they're now 5 for 50 instead of 4.

-> The number of Raveners in the Burrowers upgrade seemed excessive, so it's now only 5 instead of 6.

edit: Did some proofreading and spotted a number of errors that needed to be fixed. Version bumped by +.01

Hive Fleet Dagon is playable on Tabletop Simulator! https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/ ... 1372913607

Army Forge builder for v4.71 can be found @
https://magnusdurr.github.io/snapfire/w ... agon_NETEA

All feedback and reactions welcome, on all versions.


Attachments:
Hive Fleet Dagon 4,71.pdf [138.46 KiB]
Downloaded 6 times
FERC Tyranids Original 2018.pdf [124.38 KiB]
Downloaded 38 times
French Tyranids Original.pdf [122.84 KiB]
Downloaded 48 times

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Last edited by Mrdiealot on Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:40 am, edited 99 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon 1.0 Beta (NetEA version of F-ERC Tyrani
PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:23 pm 
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I like the idea of seeing some more 'Nid love out there so cool beans. I've not really compared this list unit stats from the established Hive Fleet Onachus ones but just a note to harmonize the two or build name variants wherever they go off the established ones.

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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon 1.0 Beta (NetEA version of F-ERC Tyrani
PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:31 pm 
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jimmyzimms wrote:
I like the idea of seeing some more 'Nid love out there so cool beans. I've not really compared this list unit stats from the established Hive Fleet Onachus ones but just a note to harmonize the two or build name variants wherever they go off the established ones.


This is of course entirely correct, and I'm now trying to implement that in the list.

A big problem so far is that Onachus uses the old terminology for bio-titans where the F-ERC uses the new. This means the F-ERC Hierodule is now a much smaller beast than in the past, while the Onachus Hierophant refers to the older Hierodule, and the biggest Bio-Titan in F-ERC is known as the Hydraphant. Not sure how to resolve this intelligently, right now I've just put the prefix "Dagon" before most things that are different.

A second, perhaps bigger problem is that the number of differences stack up quite severely to the point that it may become too confusing to separate the stats between Onachus, Dagon and F-ERC. The simplest way to resolve all this confusion may be to take the NetEA stats in all places where one can possibly have them and then re-price everything, or do the same with the F-ERC stats. Trying to take stats from both and then changing some of them to something in between might just be a bad idea.

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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon 1.0 Beta (NetEA version of F-ERC Tyrani
PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:25 pm 
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So I'm guessing I'll have to take the train/bus up to the capitol and playtest this list now? :-)

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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon 1.0 Beta (NetEA version of F-ERC Tyrani
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:19 am 
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mordoten wrote:
So I'm guessing I'll have to take the train/bus up to the capitol and playtest this list now? :-)


Sounds like a plan. Just gotta get my models from Vanguard first, and convert everything... Might be a few weeks!

Also, updated the main header.

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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon v1.0 & v1.0b (F-ERC Tyranids)
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:18 am 
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So I'm guessing you would like to see the Beta version being the one mostly tested?

And I'll race ya getting an army finished. I'm ordering my stuff today!

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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon v1.0 & v1.0b (F-ERC Tyranids)
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:52 pm 
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mordoten wrote:
So I'm guessing you would like to see the Beta version being the one mostly tested?


In my humble opinion I think it a more interesting take on an already quite interesting list. The one thing I'm a bit uncertain about is the added Macro to the Dominatrix. But I did raise the points to compensate.

The general idea is that the main version is for tournaments and the beta is for home play. Maybe in a year or so we decide that the beta (however it looks at that point) is the new main version.

mordoten wrote:
And I'll race ya getting an army finished. I'm ordering my stuff today!


Man, I've got a ton of work to do before I'll be able to bring this to the table. You might well win this race. That being said, I've got ideas for how to buy or convert every single model in the list in quantity (except the Dagon Hydraphant. Don't think I'll ever field more than one, and I'm using a 28mm Hive Tyrant as a base for conversion) so I'm definitely going to take 4000 points of 'Nids to Lincon.

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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon v1.0 & v1.0b (F-ERC Tyranids)
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:57 pm 
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Would be nice to do a get together in Stockholm. I have nids as well as you know and so does Steve. If we can get four other people to come than we have the potential for a lot of testing to get done. I wouldn't mind testing to play against your gargants as well mordoten.


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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon v1.0 & v1.0b (F-ERC Tyranids)
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:33 pm 
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Borka wrote:
Would be nice to do a get together in Stockholm. I have nids as well as you know and so does Steve. If we can get four other people to come than we have the potential for a lot of testing to get done. I wouldn't mind testing to play against your gargants as well mordoten.


Yeah, and I've got my Traitor Titan Legion that needs testing too.

Anyone got any opinions on the changes in the beta? Can really recommend reading the french tactica as well, ought to be legible with G-translate.

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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon v1.0 & v1.0b (F-ERC Tyranids)
PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:33 am 
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Yeah, I'm up for it.

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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon v1.0 & v1.0b (F-ERC Tyranids)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:49 am 
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I have to talk my wife into visiting Stockholm soon I presume... :)


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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon v1.0 & v1.1b (F-ERC Tyranids)
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:59 am 
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Post updated

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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon v1.0 & v1.1b (F-ERC Tyranids)
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:07 pm 
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Post updated (again!)

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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon v1.0 & v1.1b (F-ERC Tyranids)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:42 pm 
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mind outlining the changes? don't always have time to compare two different PDFs on a mobile but still interested in keeping my finger on the pulse, so to speak

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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Dagon v1.0 & v1.1b (F-ERC Tyranids)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:00 pm 
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jimmyzimms wrote:
mind outlining the changes? don't always have time to compare two different PDFs on a mobile but still interested in keeping my finger on the pulse, so to speak


There are quite a few at this point, and they're all (very helpfully) highlighted in purple ;D

But to give an overview: It's been a three staged process. First making some units that are pointless and/or weird be less so. Identifying which was done by reading this very handy tactica on the original french list: http://epic-fr.niceboard.com/t5466-tact ... nides-ferc

From this, I decided that Raveners were pointless, so they became synapse creatures. The Tyrannofex were also pointless, and also weird i various ways, so I made them cheaper and more useful.

The Hydralisk wasn't worth its points, so I gave it thick rear armour and better FF.

The Harpies were pointless, so they got Disrupt on their BP.

The Dagon Dominatrix got Macro on its shooting and AA.

The Venomtylis got +1 in Armour, CC and FF.

Secondly, it's been some work to re-name everything with names that makes sense from a fluff point of view and sound good.

Lastly it's been a case identifying what units could be harmonized with the existing NetEA list. Not that many as it turns out (at this point basically Termagaunts/Hormagaunts and Genestealers, and the former have relatively little in common with NetEA apart from the basic stats). I also added the special rule regeneration to the bio-titans in exchange for a small bump in points, since Reg is more or less the equivalent of 1/2 DC. We also decided to make it possible for one "Nexus Tyrant" to become Supreme Commander like in the NetEA list.

Hopefully we'll get some playtest going soon!

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Last edited by Mrdiealot on Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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