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3000pt Tyranid newbie list- 2014 playtest rules

 Post subject: 3000pt Tyranid newbie list- 2014 playtest rules
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 4:11 am 
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I was wondering if anyone felt like giving some feedback on my planned Tyranid list- they're certainly a weird army!

Hive Swarm- 475 pts
Dominatrix with symbiote, 3 Termagants, 3 Hormagaunts

Hive Swarm- 350 pts
Hive Tyrant, 2 Carnifex, 1 Haruspex, 4 Termagants, 2 Hormagaunts

Hive Swarm- 350 pts
3 Tyranid Warriors, 2 Carnifex, 4 Termagants, 2 Hormagaunts

Hive Swarm- 375 pts
3 Tyranid Warriors, 2 Exocrines, 1 Zoanthrope, 4 Termagants, 2 Hormagaunts

Exocrine Swarm- 275 pts
5 Exocrines

Biovore Swarm- 175 pts
6 Biovores

Genestealer Swarm- 150 pts
6 Genestealers

Lictor Swarm- 200 pts
4 Lictors

Harridan- 150 pts

Harridan- 150 pts

Heirodule- 350 pts
Bio cannon and Cluster Spines (I'm restricting myself to the model I have)

At only 11 activations, this army seems unusually small and weak to me, but dropping 50 pts here and there in the various swarms (to add more) will really reduce their effectiveness.

My opponent usually brings Blood Angels with 2-3 lots of Thunderbolts and a Thunderhawk packed with Sanguinary Guard. I can't do much about that air power, and Sanguinary Guard are an incredibly tough BTS (3+ save, Fearless, excellent movement, so that any few remaining stands can easily escape for the remainder of the game- I rarely manage to kill them all even with my faster armies). The Sanguinary Guard can take out the Dominatrix or Heirodule with little concern- I'm hoping the gaunt screen will help the Dom.
He also likes Stormravens- at least one squad of 4. Their one-shot rockets will hurt one lot of Armoured Vehicles. These are backed up by 4 lascannon Predators, who also lay waste to any AVs, and multi-melta landspeeders, which are a right pain in the backside.
My plan is to deploy the Dominatrix flanked by the Exocrines and Exocrine-including Hive Swarm, to increase the quality of my supporting fire. The Heirodule goes beside the Exocrines as well, with the warrior/carnifex swarm beside that. The Hive Tyrant swarm goes on the opposite side, so that I have a good spread of combat macro-weapons across the line.
Problems I always encounter with the Blood Angels is that, as marines, they are very tough- even when broken, and rally easily. Blood Angels also have incredible movement- I always find myself losing as I simply can't hunt down the single Storm Raven, Landspeeder, Thunderhawk, Sanguinary Guard, Rhino or Predator, which leaps out at Turn 3 (105cm march, usually) to contest or claim objectives. It's exceptionally frustrating, and it seems to me that Tyranids will suffer even more to this kind of problem.

The other list my opponent likes to take is plasma-heavy AMTL- usually favouring 2 all-plasma Reavers and a fair few Warhounds, plus the usual 2-3 Thunderbolts and some Knights. Against this force the Dom and Heirodule will die horribly, due to War Engine targeting rules. I could add Trygons to the Dominatrix, but this seems like delaying the inevitable and wasting points. The fact that MW's prevent targeting of AV's is to my benefit, but I still question if I can do sufficient damage once/if I reach combat range (He can stay at range quite easily, minimising my ability to combine fire thanks to the manouverability of single models).
For deployment here I think I'd have the Dom and Heirodule in flanking positions, hoping to split his Titans. They'll also hang back, hoping to draw the Titans forward a little.

While I'm at it, I have a rules question: Can the Commander ability be used to drag a unit into an assault, even if that unit has already activated that turn? For some reason I think the unit that follows the commander can't have activated yet, but I can't see that in the rules (though the Epic rulebook has some horrible layout problems!).


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 Post subject: Re: 3000pt Tyranid newbie list- 2014 playtest rules
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 4:58 am 
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Hey,
Commander ability allows you to activate multiple formations for a combined assault action, so previously activated formations can not be re-activalted using commander sorry to say. Though that sounds like an interesting special rule for the Nids alone. The Nids have a rough time in their current NetEA incarnation. They perform adequately against a few lists and very poorly against most others. It's unfortunate but what I have been hearing as advise for many NetEA players who love Nids but would also like a chance at winning now and again is to try the UK list. Can't say I've tried either lately but it seems the more potent of the two. Personally I don't think the current list captures the horde feel enough. I'd look at cutting points across the board and maintain the same rules rather than taking two Doms or mucking with the symbiotes.

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 Post subject: Re: 3000pt Tyranid newbie list- 2014 playtest rules
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 5:19 am 
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The only way thing that has been mildly effective in my past experience is setting your self up for as many engagements in the second and or third rounds and roll the dice on how many you can come out on top of. The poor of AA is painful and I think meoirc spores have been tossed out as an idea for AA though doesn't seem to have gotten any traction.

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 Post subject: Re: 3000pt Tyranid newbie list- 2014 playtest rules
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 5:38 am 
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Around two years ago I started learning Epic with 'Nids, playing two games against GlynG (I think?) while he was travelling around. I used the EpicUK list then, and had no problems- expendable models not counting as casualties for combat resolution was brutal.
Lining up multiple assaults is much easier said then done against a fast opponent like Blood Angels, and they're no slouches in assault either. The Lictors in the above list will probably achieve nothing, even if they make the assault.
One thing that has really struck me with this list is the lack of variety for Tyranids- many creatures have the 4+/3+/5+ stat lne, and many weapons are 45cm AP4+/AT5+. That seems very odd to me.
I had hoped to play this list last night, but the game was cancelled. Hopefully I'll be able to give the list a spin soon. Unfortunately, I feel this list will probably lose badly- but can't see how to fix that. Hopefully once models are on the table it'll work out better.

I thought that was the case for the Commander rule, I just find it odd that everyone suggests using Commander a lot in a Tyranid list, but also never being close enough to count as intermingled (mutually exclusive, as both have a 5cm range between units).


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 Post subject: Re: 3000pt Tyranid newbie list- 2014 playtest rules
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 11:59 am 
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The list looks good enough to me. The only thing I would change would be the Exocrine in the Synapse Swarm. If you're having trouble with it in general post some pics and a game synopsis. That'll give us an idea of how you're playing them, your board setup and if you've got all the rules right.

I'll add the BA list (especially the Storm Ravens) has been shown to be over powered:
viewtopic.php?p=554396#p554396

We've never played AMTL locally so I can' comment there.

Wehave played plenty ofnid games locally and they so gave a winning record. See comments from your other thread.

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 Post subject: Re: 3000pt Tyranid newbie list- 2014 playtest rules
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 5:33 pm 
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What's wrong with the Exocrines? I took them as volume seems more important than quality in this list, but couldn't fit another Exocrine swarm. Also, their low movement isn't an issue when the squad is already dragging around a Zoanthrope (which I want one of, solely because the Dominatrix is vulnerable).

I've seen that Blood Angels thread before, and the Stormraven discussion, but that's over a year old now, with no sign of progress- I'm not holding my breath for changes.


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 Post subject: Re: 3000pt Tyranid newbie list- 2014 playtest rules
PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 4:36 pm 
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I've enjoyed playing with the Nid list so far and I've had reasonable success with it. I'll offer my two cents for what it's worth.

So far I prefer a Trygon Swarm over lictors. While they're more expensive, having a 6 DC formation appear on the board really helps set up an engagement or draw fire at the least.

I've been underwhelmed by genestealers. Haven't written them off just yet, but I feel there's better ways to use the points.

I usually leave the zoanthropes at home. If you find you have the extra space for them, maybe, but I'd hold off on them. This would also allow you to remove the exos from that formation.

I think it's worth turning that exo Swarm into dactlys. While it's expensive, it certainly draws attention and adds some range to a list that doesn't have too much.

While I love the carnifex, the hausprex bring a short range to the table which is valuable. I'd suggest changing that ratio to 1:2 in your swarms.

Finally, consider moving the symbiote to a hive tyrant. This would to make the dominatrix a slightly less valuable target, although there is the trade off of durability.

Best of luck and let us know how it goes!

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 Post subject: Re: 3000pt Tyranid newbie list- 2014 playtest rules
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 3:45 am 
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Agree, Lictors are god awful and never plan to take them again. Trygons on the other hand have been amazing in my games, even if they pop up turn 3.

Personally never used genestealers as id always used gaunts and they have been great.

Also never used the zoanathropes as points are better elsewhere.

I run 6 Exo and 6 Dactyles with 8 Biovors. This gives two long siege disrupt units that really draw attention from your swarm and the Exos are nice medium range tanks to pound into enemy vehicles.

Id never take symboiant off Dom, but that's just my preference as id like it on the most durable unit in the list.


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 Post subject: Re: 3000pt Tyranid newbie list- 2014 playtest rules
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 10:30 am 
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Thanks for the ideas.

Swapping Lictors for Trygons is probably good- the only issue I see is the need to pre-plot the tunneler location, and the reduced options in when the models arrive. That can be a problem against a fast-moving army like the Blood Angels- I assume the usual strategy is to aim them for the blitz, or close to a midline objective?
On second thought, there's also an issue with the War Engine points allowance- 750pts (one quarter), and the two Harridans and Heirodule take up 650pts. Would people suggest dropping one of these things?

Swapping a few more Carnifexes for Haruspexes is probably fine. I have a preference for Fearless units due to his numerous Thunderbolts he always takes- usually any squad of mine that breaks quickly dies to blast markers.

That air power also encourages a zoanthrope or two, but I do see that they will probably be very ineffective anyway. Part of the reason for putting it with Exocrines was so that it couldn't be suppressed as easily.

I am hoping that the Genestealers can help screen me from drop pods, and hinder the fast moving predators and rhinos.

I've got a bit of a preference for the Exocrines (and Biovores) over the Dactylis because of my usual artillery experience (I also play Guard). Artillery just doesn't cause much damage to armoured formations, and is weaker on smaller formations. Disrupt can be great, but I've never had it bother marines much- ATSKNF makes them horrendously resistant to markers.

I'll do a revised list as I assemble some new models. I still don't know when I'll get a chance to play.


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 Post subject: Re: 3000pt Tyranid newbie list- 2014 playtest rules
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 10:02 pm 
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If you're looking to drop a WE, I'd say you can get rid of a Harridan. While it will limit your late game mobility, making sure you set up objectives close together can mitigate that need.

When plotting the Trygons, its all a matter of looking at the set up of terrain and objectives, and then making movements that encourage your opponent to move units into the zone you want. While it may not work out exactly, with a little practice you should be able to use them right away, whether it be 2nd or 3rd turn.

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 Post subject: Re: 3000pt Tyranid newbie list- 2014 playtest rules
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 4:07 pm 
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I managed to get a game with the list mentioned in the first post. My opponent played Titan legions, with 2 reavers (one with double gatling blaster and 5 shot plasma gun, one with 5 shot plasma gun, 4 shot plasma gun and the melta cannon, both with inspiring), 1 Warhound with 2 Vulcan Megabolters, a Warhound pack with 4 plasma guns, a unit of Forge Knights and 2 lots of Thunderbolts.

The game started fairly well- I was able to hug a lot of cover, keeping most of my Hive Swarms and War Engines safe. The Thunderbolts disabled the Biovores very quickly, with the Tyranid AA doing nothing. I spent most of the first turn marching or doubling, setting up as many assaults as possible. The Exocrines took one lot of plasma and broke, not rallying for the rest of the game. I sacrificed a Harridan to take all of the Warhound Pack's plasma shots too (it saved a Hive Swarm that was in a good assault position). The remaining Harridan was broken by being hit with a Melta Cannon (it tried to hide, but could still just be seen after the Reaver doubled).

The second turn things went very pear shaped. The Thunderbolts didn't reappear, and played no more part in the game (my opponent always has terrible luck with them). I used the Hierodule to blast marker a Reaver, before assaulting with the Genestealers. No damage was done, and 5 genestealers were squashed. The supporting Hierodule stripped some shields, and I lost the combat horribly. That Reaver then wiped out the Hierodule with a storm of plasma and titan killer melta weaponry. I continued trying to hurt that Reaver (the BTS), and set up another supported assault with two Hive Swarms (including the Dominatrix, though only for FF- my opponent wasn't silly enough to get close). I stripped all shields and did ~4 damage, losing a lot of gaunts in return. The Reaver broke and easily doubled to safety. The second reaver unleashed a lot of shots against a Hive Swarm in cover (the one with the Tyrant), and wiped out all the gaunts, but did nothing else (I was very lucky). The plasma Warhounds took advantage of the hole in my line to march down into my back field- with 75cm he was easily able to stay out of assault range of anything meaningful. My Lictors, which had popped up near his double-bolter Warhound launched an assault- 4 sniper hits, 1 damage done (on 6+ RA). I managed a crit, but as always it was pretty meaningless for a Warhound. 3 Lictors were squashed in return (3 dice needing 4+), and the last suffered severe overkill from a supporting Reaver. Dice were very much against me there. My opponent still was still making use of his range, unsurprisingly, so I advanced, doubled or marshalled where appropriate, slowly drawing closer and laying BMs (in the futile hope he may fail to activate or rally). I did launch one fairly silly assault on the plasma Warhound Pack, using the Hive Swarm with Warriors and Carnifexes. Only 2 Hormagaunts could reach base contact, but I thought I had enough other advantages. All of my attacks managed 1 damage and 1 shield down, before ~5 gaunts were squashed (yes, from 6 dice needing 4's). My squad broke and went back to support my Blitz.

Turn 3 I was very lucky to win initiative, and with a recently recharged plasma and gatling Reaver too close for comfort I set about making an assault. The Dominatrix and (now termagant heavy) entourage moved up to lay BMs and provide support fire. She stripped 2 shields in the process. I retained and assaulted with the remains of the Tyrant Hive Swarm- 2 Hormagaunts, 1 Termagant and all the heavy hitters. I think I managed 2-3 damage (no crits), before losing everything in base contact (ie. all but the lone Termagant stand) (yes, that's 6 hits on 6 dice, needing 3's, followed by 4 failed 4+ RA saves). The supporting dominatrix and friends did nothing. Unsurprisingly the lone Termagant evaporated, as did the Dominatrix when the Reaver activated. At that point I had lost my BTS, and my opponent easily held his DtF, and threatened my Blitz and TSNP (8 plasma shots from the Warhounds wouldn't have done good things to my Blitz guard, and though I could have easily stopped TSNP there was no reason to unless other gambles paid off). I moved my severely wounded Harridan up to contest his Blitz, despite the likely suicide. Surprisingly, the Harridan survived the Knight's assault, but was broken. With that I lost any chance of making it to a 4th turn, not that that would have helped me anyway (through casualties and broken units my opponent equalled me in activations, so there was no point in delaying the flight of the Harridan).

Overall, it felt like this game was an uphill battle from the outset. Tyranid AT is poor, and even more so when they must always double to close the range gap. The Dominatrix was terribly vulnerable to all of the plasma, though I think I did a great job protecting it as long as I did (and when it did die it was because an assault that should have been in my favour failed spectacularly). The Hierodule was an unfortunate loss- I was obviously overestimating it and the 'Stealers. The Thunderbolts were out of my control, and it was only by luck that they didn't appear much more.
I set up as many supported combats as I could, but feel like the dice failed me (I tended to roll average hits and my opponent average saves, but he rolled excellent hits and I made no saves). I'm not too surprised by that- I was often rolling buckets of dice, but looking for 5's, which is always rough. My heavy combat hitter monsters managed a few charges, though that wasn't easy. My opponent could easily have kept me at bay with range if I hadn't been lucky on Turn 3 initiative. When they did reach combat the dice were again woeful.
This seems like a very high risk army, I just never managed to see any of the high reward, though I feel I did as well as possible in many cases.

How would people suggest tackling Titan Legions with Tyranids, keeping in mind that my opponent and I don't list-tailor?
At the end of the game my opponent pointed out that I spread damage around a lot and I needed to concentrate it- both Reavers were down to ~2 hull points. I pointed out that being giant, fast, fearless, well-armoured vehicles I never had a chance to follow up a successful combat- he could easily flee far out of range of my assaults, and shooting was near useless (I did manage to get 2 hits from 2 shots once, despite needing 7's, but the 4+RA save was made, as usual). Whenever serious trouble arose he could (and did) marshall his shields back, and move more than 20cm away.

Lessons for next time: I will drop the Exocrines and Zoanthrope. the -5cm move is terrible, the shooting not good enough, and the AA pretty useless. Other than that, I want to try against a more regular type of opponent (though Titans will be a common opponent of mine).

Later I expect to face Tau, and I'm pretty much at a loss there. Planes with TK weapons will put paid to any War Engines when my AA is so poor, and lots of skimming tanks will seriously weaken my assault ability. That'll be a report for another day.


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 Post subject: Re: 3000pt Tyranid newbie list- 2014 playtest rules
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2015 12:05 am 
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Thanks for the report! I would agree that TL are a very tough match for the Nids. It seems like you had the right idea, just got hamstrung by dice roles. I also think you're making some good choices with prospective list revisions.

As for Tau, yeah, your big guys are gonna get hit. And a lot. However, that means your other formations won't be getting shot at as much. Even with the skimmers, engage the space commies. Use lots of numbers and pure overwhelming shots to grind them out. The Tau will have trouble killing all of your units, especially if you advance fast on them.

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 Post subject: Re: 3000pt Tyranid newbie list- 2014 playtest rules
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2015 5:16 am 
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I have to wonder- if Exocrines and Zoanthropes are poor thanks to the 15cm move, why do they have that as their movement? The movement values among Tyranids seem pretty random at times.
Even the all-Exocrine formation felt awkward to use with a 15cm move and shortish ranged guns (not that more movement would have helped them much in my game).


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 Post subject: Re: 3000pt Tyranid newbie list- 2014 playtest rules
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2015 7:13 am 
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As for Tau, learn what units have markerlights and use terrain to stay out of view. Remember they can only see 10cm into terrain. Watch out for x-fire in combination with markerlights. This will usually comes from those scout skimmers. The hammerheads have markerlights too. Try to pick them off if you can.
Dactyli are great for destroying Tau inf if you can keep them safe in some terrain covered by the domis AA bobble.
Keep your AT out of sight from his railheads.
Personally I have given up on tyranid AA (I dont remember ever downing anything with it) but I still use the domis AA for deterrent.
Tau is a hard match for tyranids as the they often negate one of our most important strengths - our ability to utilize and benefit from terrain while their skimmers make it very hard for us to get into CC.

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 Post subject: Re: 3000pt Tyranid newbie list- 2014 playtest rules
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2015 11:29 am 
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I wouldn't have sacrificed the Harridan for a synapse swsrm. Let the swarms take the beating and save yourself an activation for later. As long as your synapse units survive it'll likely rally.

Were your exocrine in cover when they took the plasma? Yes, they're slow but they should get a late turn 1 double in if you can hide them.

The AA did do something, it kept the Tbilts from apraring on turn 2. I use it to try and get 2 BMs on them. You're paying 25 points for a BM or two, that averages out to some failed activations.

Was the Genestealer assault supported? They can take on a Warhound well enouh, but they're not WE killers. The FS only means something when they can kill before they get hit.

From what you called out it did seem like the dice disnlt swing your way. Against a 6 activation army i would try to stall as much as possible turn 1 then move up the assaults. Plasma is nasty but mitigated by slow firing. Stick to cover and put the expendiblre stuff up front to waste those MW shots.

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