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Tyranid fine tuning

 Post subject: Re: Tyranid fine tuning
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 3:20 pm 
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I don't really see how 2 hits before saves from 3 DC 2 WE could ever be seen as *too* good? If that's enough to win a firefight I reckon you need to be bringing bigger guns!!


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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid fine tuning
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 5:59 pm 
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Then show me they're broken at FF6+. When Trygons were FF5+ and holding their own in FF against marine formations of greater cost it seemed odd.

2@5+ is slightly better than 1@4+. The Exocrine is FF4+, should a Trygon's output exceed that of a dedicated gun-bug? It's closer to that of a Carnifex FF5+, and 2@6+ is very close to a 5+.

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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid fine tuning
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:41 pm 
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Dave wrote:
2@5+ is slightly better than 1@4+. The Exocrine is FF4+, should a Trygon's output exceed that of a dedicated gun-bug?


Yes, it definitely should. The Exocrine is ranged-artillery piece, the Trygon is an engagement specialist.

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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid fine tuning
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:19 pm 
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Statistically, I don't see how they should do better than maybe 40/60 against say, a tactical formation. If you leave out the transports to roughly equalise the points; They're likely to get one kill in a firefight and take at least three hits back, so they'll already lose it right there more often than not and they'll probably end up outnumbered if they do.

All I'm really saying is that when I was playing necrons I did a double take on the stats when I was forced into FF. They went from scary monster to expensive meat shield in my mind. 5+ RA is nice but I wouldn't rely on it and no criticals with no hits in return. Against say Eldar or Necrons I'll be leaving them at home with these stats I think.


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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid fine tuning
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:25 pm 
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Yes I'm not sure the reduction to FF6+ was so wonderful, having fought with and against them. Plus they have also lost their shooting attack. I'm not fully convinced either way though.

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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid fine tuning
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 12:01 pm 
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Dominatrix Army Restriction

Currently she's 0-1 because she's a SC. Some don't like this so how should we fix it?


I think, given what we know of Dominatrixes, that they should be restricted. If people want to field more Dominatrixes, it is rather more tellling that it is the most useful Bio-titan, irregardless of SC.

The Leviathan list had a similar approach to what some suggest, that SC is like a Synapse Character added to something. It is certainly doable, but I would rather make more choices attractive than shoehorning more Doms into every battle.

I also like the idea of an army-wide 0-1 Dominatrix being a Synapse Swarm upgrade. However, and this is big however, it really makes the Dom vulnerable to air or teleport assaults. Suddenly, there are 6 juicy kills to be made and this is the reason people start out with just two and not more.

1/3 War Engine Restriction

Some people feel this is too restrictive and too messy to check for. Currently you count all WEs and just WEs, not any of the little stuff (eg, you count the Dom but not any Termagants et al that are with her).


I do not think the 1/3 restriction is so messy, but more in line with Markconz, is it needed? I can see unchecked WE abuse becoming a problem, so I support Markconz' idea that the 1/3 restriction is applied to Independent War Engines, and does not count Dominatrix and Trygon added to Synapse Swarms. It could give the Tyranid army list a little more much needed oomph!

Bio-titan Armaments

People aren't happy with the current armaments. Initially I had each Bio-titan looking like this, weapon-wise:


I usually run a Hierodule in my armylists (last game, it put 5DC damage to a Tzeentch Warlord, but alas, no crits). I have lost it only once (to Tau Markerlights and a two-turn torrent of fire. Its main usefulness is that it adds threat and can take some punishment. I have never been that impressed by its weapons.

I think the current restrictions should be cancelled in favour of your weapon list. Tyranids pay more than a Warhound for a CC-oriented shield-less titan with little to no shooting.

I do not know if there should be no differences between the bio-weapon load-outs between Hierophant and Hierodule. Since both titans have two weapon mounts, would not that effectively make the Hierophant less attractive? Maybe the Hierophant could choose 0-1 and the Hierophant 0-2. Just an idea. I have to admit, I have not played with the Hierophant yet, so other peoples' input would be valuable.

Dactytlis Cost in Synapse Swarms

The list I just put forward to the ERC has them at 75 points a piece in Synapse Swarms, I bumped them up from 60.


I think it is the right move. 4 Dactylis in a Hive Tyrant Swarm was essentially a no-brainer, and as Markconz showed is open to abuse as well. However, I can see Biovores becoming the new Independent favourite.

Gargoyles

The list I just put forward to the ERC has them at +20 points a piece, list-wide, but still at Brood (2).


I approve.

Dactylis/Exocrine Move

There's been complaints that they're too slow, people are looking to bump them to 20cm. Thoughts?


I think Dactylis could do with 15 cm, and the Exocrine 20.

Raveners

They cost too much compared to brood, People are looking to drop them from 35 to 30 points. Thoughts?


Agree.

Broodlord

This is something I've been testing for awhile. Broodlords at +25 points instead of 50, and they don't have an extra attack (just Leader and Inspiring).


Sounds good.

Lictor

My group has brought this up a couple of times, Lictors shouldn't have FS on their FF, or maybe even FF at all. Thoughts?


I think they should have FF6. I have a hard time grasping people feel Lictors being abusive because of FF. No FF makes them sitting ducks with Tyranids' SR1.


A last point:

I think major revisions should be left out. Better to get approved and get a list for changes you want to see. There is nothing overpowered in the list. I think the main concern right now is Trygons. I tried them out in a tournament two weeks ago, and the Burrowing mechanism is a bit clunky. I used them as threat multipliers and they got assaulted two games and sacrificed them the third game. In that role, they excelled, but they were nothing like a major threat. Given that Trygons use WE allowance and are more expensive than Lictors, I see myself switching to Lictors. Teleport is better than Tunneling as well.

I would seriously consider making a Teleport variant of Tunnelling for Trygons. Own half, Turn 1. Anywhere, turn 2 onwards.

/Fredmans


Last edited by fredmans on Fri Jan 31, 2014 12:16 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid fine tuning
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 12:03 pm 
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On the Trygon FF, 6 or 5 will not matter much. If they are engaged, a good player will break them anyway. I think they need a Teleport mechanism to function properly. Even if they pop up and are left alone, they will struggle to see CC.


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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid fine tuning
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 12:09 pm 
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Dave wrote:
Thoughts on this:

Markconz wrote:
Drop this section:

"A formation may only return units to play if it started the game with
that type of unit. For example, if a formation began the game with
only Termagants then it could only return Termagants via swarming."

The only effect this "restriction" seems to have is that people will always take a single token termagant and hormagaunt for the Dominatrix at start, and at least one of each in a swarm. In other words if you take one token Termagant at the start you can spawn a dozen of them, but if you don't take a the token unit you can't spawn back any. (Possibly a token Gargoyle might be worth buying in this way if they drop to 20 points but they are also brood 2 so not nearly as attractive in the spawning role as Termagants).

Firstly, this rule seems to be lacking in sense if you are trying restrict spawning in a meaningful way(!), as you just take a token gaunt and the restriction is completely gone. I'm guessing it is an overlooked holdover from a previous version of the list where spawning was more powerful (i.e. involving rolling dice for spawning and being able to bring back AV's etc). In that old role I agree it served a definite purpose, but it no longer does so now. It looks and feels messy and unnecessary, especially during army design, and for new players who have to be told "always take a termagant and hormagaunt with your Dominatrix and at least one gaunt of each type in swarms".

Secondly, it also doesn't seem to make much sense in terms of fluff. Surely rallying gaunts should just come back to whatever Synapse creature is available (and especially a Dominatrix)?

Either make it a meaningful restriction (like you can only spawn back to the composition you started with), or drop it altogether. Given the lack of any real effect the rule currently has, and fact that the spawning criteria are much tighter than the previous list, I would advise just dropping it altogether. It just compromises the elegance of the list by adding essentially meaningless text to an army that has always had complaints about the length of special rules.



I think this is an excellent suggestion. It also eliminates a certain degree of bookkeeping, speeding up the Tyranid game a little more. Makes Gargoyles and Raveners more interesting as well.

/Fredmans


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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid fine tuning
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 12:10 pm 
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zombocom wrote:
Yes, it definitely should. The Exocrine is ranged-artillery piece, the Trygon is an engagement specialist.


This. I like EA better when it recognizes that ranged shooting and firefight requires different skill sets.

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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid fine tuning
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 12:38 pm 
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+1 for removing the spawning restriction, if it's supposed to represent gaunts rallying to the nearest synapse creature then it would represent that without the need to be in the formation to begin with. It also shaves off a few points, probably 40-60 off your Synapse Swarm that could be better spent elsewhere.

@Fredmans - I completely see what you're saying about FF 5+ or 6+ not making much difference, so given that I'd be inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt. I just feel like 6+ makes it too unlikely that they'll ever make any difference at all in a firefight, whereas at 5+ sometimes they will. It also gives them more of a roll with regards to supporting fire. Right now they feel a like a bit of a gamble which seems a shame for one of the more iconic units in the list.


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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid fine tuning
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 1:36 pm 
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I'm looking at making trygons + raveners teleporters in the Leviathan list, for what it's worth.

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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid fine tuning
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 2:23 pm 
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@Alf, on the Trygons FF. Did you do a double take at the 'fex stats when you looked at them? They're meant to be similar in armour, FF and CC. With 3 fex being 150 and 3 Trygons being 225 there's a 75 points difference which accounts for: a separate formation, barging, faster move and tunneling. I see the separate formation accounting for 25 points of that, 17 points a model for the rest doesn't seem too bad to me.

I could see a way to a cost reduction given that though, say 65-70 for Independent swarm upgrades, and 60-65 for Synapse swarm upgrades, but the whole 'it should FF better than an Exocrine' line is just opinion. It can be balanced either way, and as I don't agree with it we're going with my opinion (as the guy who provided half the play-tests I get to pull some strings). ;D

@Fredmans - I don't see how Teleport would be that much more of a boon as they'd be statically likely to come in with a BM. I usually put them on the mid line on turn 2, and don't remember many games when they weren't within BtB range of something.

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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid fine tuning
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 2:53 pm 
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Fair enough - I've said my piece, just makes them that bit more situational I guess...


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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid fine tuning
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:11 pm 
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Dave wrote:

@Fredmans - I don't see how Teleport would be that much more of a boon as they'd be statically likely to come in with a BM. I usually put them on the mid line on turn 2, and don't remember many games when they weren't within BtB range of something.


I just feel that teleport would give you added flexibility, with or without BMs. I have only played Trygons in three games and in all three games, I did as you say, in one game I faced a somewhat denied flank in combination with an impassable terrain blocking the centre of the board and was not able to make an engagement, much less BtB. In two games, I popped them up as a multiple threat tactic. The enemy broke them by going first. That being said, they saved my other troops.

Why I prefer Teleport? Tyranids can pose multiple threats around the centre line without Trygons. Teleport adds a threat to the deployment zone and you have a good chance of setting up crossfires. Moreover, if the opponent deals with your Trygons in its backwaters, your enemy divert forces away from your main thrust.

That being said, I think they should stay as they are for now. Some people would like to see them more powerful, but that would also call for a cost change in my opinion. They certainly have their uses now, being fearless WE is probably the most useful (blocking LOS, non-bargeable etc).

/Fredmans


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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid fine tuning
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 5:37 pm 
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I can see that for CC troops tunnelling might be quite restrictive. Why not make it a controlled scatter, a bit like drop pods?
e.g. you can choose to place the first unit anywhere within 15cm of the recorded point, with all units within 30cm.

You can justify that you would have *some* control over where the units finally end up, adjusting course in the final 100m or whatever.

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