I'm looking to collect people's thoughts on the current list all in one place. Here are some points that need addressing, if I'm missing anything bring it up. All opinions are welcome but those of the playtesters will carry the most weight.

Dominatrix Army Restriction

Currently she's 0-1 because she's a SC. Some don't like this so how should we fix it?

Removing the SC is simple enough, with that I think the Synapse should decrease to 2 and she should probably have commander and leader. To get SC back she could have a 0-1 per army upgrade that grants SC and Synapse (+1).

The issue that causes though is she's still a core formation. I don't think an army of Doms would be fluffy OR fun to play against. We could make the non-SC Dom an independent swarm but that would be weird with it still having Synapse and based on how the Hive Mind rule works. So the solutions I can think of are:

• Doms become 0-2 per army, and only one can be SC.
• We put another restriction saying no more than 1/3 or 1/4 of the Synapse Swarms may be Doms
• Another swarm category is created to hold her (Support Synapse?) where only one may be fielded per each Synapse Swarm.

The first option seems cleanest to me. The second is more flexible though with regards to the bigger games. The third options seems really messy, but it might be worthwhile to consider given the next point...

1/3 War Engine Restriction

Some people feel this is too restrictive and too messy to check for. Currently you count all WEs and just WEs, not any of the little stuff (eg, you count the Dom but not any Termagants et al that are with her).

So, what are people's thoughts? I'm assuming that it would less messy to count a whole formation. Something like:



That doesn't address the restrictive problem though, thoughts? Also, if the Dom looses the 0-1 should all the Doms count towards the 1/3 restriction?

Bio-titan Armaments

People aren't happy with the current armaments. Initially I had each Bio-titan looking like this, weapon-wise:



I removed it because people took issue with it being too flexible (although no playtests backed that up). What are the current thoughts on it? Do we want to try this again? Something else?

Dactytlis Cost in Synapse Swarms

The list I just put forward to the ERC has them at 75 points a piece in Synapse Swarms, I bumped them up from 60.

Gargoyles

The list I just put forward to the ERC has them at +20 points a piece, list-wide, but still at Brood (2).

Dactylis/Exocrine Move

There's been complaints that they're too slow, people are looking to bump them to 20cm. Thoughts?

Raveners

They cost too much compared to brood, People are looking to drop them from 35 to 30 points. Thoughts?

Broodlord

This is something I've been testing for awhile. Broodlords at +25 points instead of 50, and they don't have an extra attack (just Leader and Inspiring).

Lictor

My group has brought this up a couple of times, Lictors shouldn't have FS on their FF, or maybe even FF at all. Thoughts?

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I like the Dominatrix being 0-1. At most I would want it to be 0-1 per 3,000 points, or part of, being played. More would be available in bigger games then.

Definitely want there to be a 1/3 restriction, don't have a problem with it as is at the moment or could include the formation too.

I'd like to see the bio-titan weapons list back I think.

I'd take a +25 broodlord but not bother at +50.

Good to see the Dactylis price rise.

I think Lictors should have FS on their FF6+, I don't see why this is a problem? They're incredibly sneaky and able to sneak up and attack their enemies before they realise they are there.

My thoughts simply from reading the list and the rules and with little to none Nid play so take what I say worth a grain of salt:

1. I like GlynC's option of 1 per 3000pts or part thereof.
2. I don't mind a Restriction, but I do feel that the current blanket 1/3 restriction is slightly to harsh. Maybe move the Dominatrix out of the WE Restricted Category? I think even that shift would be enough to keep the spam in check but also still allow people at 3k to bring a decent assortment of WE's.
3. No opinion really.
4. At 75pts they feel to expensive for some BP's but I can undertand it. 60 is to cheap so I would likely have gone with 70pts but that's me.
5. 20pts is much better. They might be usable there. At 25pts each with the double brood for spawning they felt to expensive.
6. I think a speed bump for the Exorcine/Dactyliss is a good thing. It allows people to be more aggressive but I don't know how much people would actually use it so it might be a wash.
7. Raveners need the point drop. I can't see taking them for anything other than wanting to do the models at the moment.
8. No opinion
9. I think Lictors should have FF and FS on their FF. Same reasons pretty much as GlynC. But then again the FF reason for me would be based on 40k's last few editions of Lictors having short ranged shooting.

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For this iteration of the list, leave it as is; It works well.

For future versions, I'd suggest putting SC, Synapse and Energy Pulse on the 0-1 character upgrade ("Synapse Symbiote?"), and then letting the (no longer 0-1) Nexus Swarms take Hive Tyrants and Warriors as upgrades for Synapse. The current structure encourages fielding a minimal swarm around the Dominatrix, since it is (against some opponents) a fairly vulnerable unit; I'd like to see large swarms of small critters scuttling around the Dom beasts...



I'd suggest splitting "Independent Swarms" into "Independent Swams" and "Monstrous Swarms", and put the Harridan, Hierodule, Hierophant and Trygon Formations in the latter. This would have two effects:
1) The 1/3 restriction can be put on "Monstrous Swarms", including associated small critters; This is simple and easy to calculate. I prefer to keep the Dom and upgrade Trygons out of this calculation; The list structure makes those rather thin on the ground anyway.
2) The rather hard limit of 1 independent per synapse swarm is eased a bit, since it would be possible to take both a small and a monstrous swarm per synapse swarm.

For a future release, where the Nexus swarm is no longer 0-1, with an SC upgrade, I would perhaps deal with this by
1) Dropping the Nexus swarm formation entirely,
2) Make the "base" Dom a 0-1 upgrade per Tyranid Swarm, and
3) Make the SC symbiote a 0-1 army-wide upgrade to a "base" Dom

It streamlines the list, and ensures that Doms are always accompanied with 7-8 lesser units.


I like this.


I think this is a mite harsh. The 400 point Dactylis formation is too expensive to take, and a 500 point Dactylis synapse swarm is edging into the same territory. It has advantages, sure, but it also has a huge opportunity cost, in that you'll have one less synapse swarm to actually engage the enemy. But, let's see how much play they get at this price.


At this price, why not also make them replaceable into the base Tyranid swarm ("...and any six of the following units: Hormagaunts, Termagants, Gargoyles") I think they'd see a bit more play, then.


I didn't mind their slower speed, compared to assault bugs. On the other hand, with speed parity with the rest of the swarm, they're worth the increased cost above.


No opinion, never used them (which may be a data point in itself...)


No opinion, never used it (as above)


Removing their minimal FF makes them even less scary; They're struggling enough as it is.

Thoughts on this:

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Dominatrix - for this iteration leave as is probably. Something like what STM suggests might be interesting though. I really like the idea of forcing the Dom to have some gaunts around, making it a 0-1 upgrade for a synapse swarm (replacing warriors/tyrant in a swarm). If wanted Doms could be 0-1 per 3K or part thereof, or 0-2 like the Lictors, with one chosen as the SC.

1/3 WE restriction. What STM says, stick the Bio-titans (Hierodule, Hierophant, Harridan, Trygon swarm) in a 1/3 restriction and that should be enough. It's not WE themselves that are the real problem I think, but the potential for so much 4+RA to be available no matter what the unit is, as it can be very frustrating for opponents unless they have the means to deal with it. At least Bio-titans are easy to break whereas other swarms with 4+RA can be very difficult to deal with. Dom and upgrade Trygons can be left out of 1/3 limit as list structure restricts them already. Trygons are also weak WE, equivalent but not as good as races SHT, and as I've noted before there is no justification for restricting the Tyranids more in this regard than other armies.

Bio-Titans. Yes the old armaments. Or at the least give the Hierophant a Bio-cannon if you don't do that. I still have mixed feelings about the 60cm MW barrage from the Dominatrix and whether this is really necessary... but accept I seem to be alone in this. It does give enemy a healthy respect for the Dom I guess.

Dactylis: Defnitely more than 60, but I agree 500 for 4BP at 90cm is a bit much. Try 70. Really I'd prefer them at 5+RA and cheaper but I guess that is too much of a change.

Gargoyles: Fine at 20pts brood 2. However I would be quite worried about letting them be swapped in as part of a basic swarm as STM suggests, it sounds a bit too much like skorchers on steroids. Having to buy them as an upgrade means they are more limited, including coming out of your WE allowance when taken with Harridans if the above WE 1/3 restriction is adopted.

Dactylis: Keep move 15. Exocrine move 20 wouldn't go amiss probably.

Raveners: Never taken them. They are rubbish! 30 or 35 points and give them FF6+ as complete lack of FF and Strategy Rating 1 makes them sitting ducks, especially with Trygons also having dropped to FF6. Guns have been an option in previous and probably current 40K editions Raveners. I'd even suggest dropping them from the list as this is an old school list, but I realise some people have models and want to use them (I have some models but don't really care, I'm more sorry about the models I bought for the "little Hierodules" from previous versions but once again accept these can be left out). (Edit: and for ref compare their stats with Ork Nobz).

Broodlord: 50 points and give it Leader, extra attack, inspiring and Commander? They are after all supposed to co-ordinate entire bug uprising armies. But don't really know what to do with it sorry I haven't used it.

Lictors: Fine as is, like STM says they struggle enough to justify using them at present.


Overall I think the list is pretty good, but it might be good to play a few more games with some of the above fine tunings perhaps?

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You're not alone! Me, Fredmans and another guy that plays Tyranids discussed this after our last tournament. We agreed that the 60 cm range is a bit odd for something that sounds like a psychic attack. The suggestion we discussed was that 45cm seemed more appropriate.

On the same topic, I liked the suggestion by STM:



This would limit the MW AA which is quite powerful. With 2 dominatrixes you could almost, and with three definetly, cover most of your army with MW AA otherwise. That's quite powerful for an army where lack of AA is intended to be a weaknes.



+1, Replacing warriors/Hive tyrants would hold the cost down of the swarm.

I am a bit surprised by the 60cm attack on the Dominatrix, would have thought 45cm, but this would be a bigger change. Multiple AA MW bubbles would be too good, if you allow multiple Dominatrixes in any fashion keep the energy pulse and supreme a 0-1 upgrade to one. Having the Domintrix replace the Hive Tyrants or TWs in a formation does sound like a better option than now.

I would like to see Ravenors get FF6+, they have small guns built into their chests in 40k.

Doesn't sound like it would get used? That's as now with commander and how often would he close enough and intermingled to use it? Cheaper at 25 (same cost as an Eldar Exarch) is better IMO.

I meant an extra MW attack, i.e. same as a SM Captain. But you may be right.

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Lictors in the fluff have spines they shoot, whos to say they can't actually kill?

They have short ranged flesh hooks that grab their prey, which is the rationalle for the FF6+.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

+1 to all of this, I don't think Raveners are so bad, they're possibly at their best when they're tunnelling as that way you're using them to do something that the gaunts can't do. Trygons with FF 6+ do suck a bit right now. In 40k they a 6 shot ST5 AP5 weapon - doesn't that sound a bit more like FF 5+ - did it really break them before it was changed to 6+. I'm not really *that* fussed but they do feel a little underpowered right now.

Broodlords at 25 points without the extra attack sound good to me, I'd rather have the other stuff anyway, 25 points for an extra attack make them too expensive imho.

Bio Titans should be more flexible, this seem easy to implement.

I'm not overly fussed by the whole Dactylis thing, even at 75 you're still getting 170 points of stuff thrown in for free. I can't particularly see my self taking them outside of an independent swarm anyway, you really want them sustaining and as soon you mix in anything else you're conflicting their role which doesn't seem to fit with the way the list plays. If you want to bring the independent price down I won't complain!!! But at 4+RA they should probably stay as they are...

In one of the ultramarine books where tyranids where attacking a planet, a lictor that infilitrated ahead of the attack shot someone with a spine. It didn't kill him but left a nasty wound that left scent on him to attract other tyranids to him directly.

I was fighting for FF5+ when Dave and I hashed the stats together. I'm sure Dave can give his rationalle.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

They were 5+ up until 10.2. My group felt it was too good after we saw them get away with too many clipping assaults and fight their way out of a FF.

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