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[OLD] Tyranid Army List v10.2

 Post subject: Re: Tyranid Army List v10.2
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 10:53 am 
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I think it's good to have toned down swarming and really like the idea of the new system. I really wouldn't want to see swarming values increase, it's frustrating and challenging enough having dead brood creature come back already.


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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid Army List v10.2
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 11:01 am 
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but isn't that what the whole list is supposed to be about? I always felt it made the list unique, I might even say that swarming should be increased but the unit values should be a bit reduced (in other words give the gaunts worse stats, but just make them coming back all the time).


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 Post subject: Tyranid Army List v10.2
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 11:03 am 
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@Glyn - This could equally be very true - it's already very good to be able to bring back heavy losses from one formation through all your others on the board...


Last edited by Alf O'Mega on Sat Jan 18, 2014 11:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid Army List v10.2
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 11:20 am 
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mspaetauf wrote:
but isn't that what the whole list is supposed to be about?

No, I don't know that it is. Coming back from the dead is a Necron thing and apart from the Tervigon there's no respawning mechanism in the 40k tyranid list. I think it's already significant (5-10 critters per formation per turn is a lot!) and useful as it is now, but it would seem silly/unrealistic and be more frustrating to play against if happened rather more.

I view tyranids as a horde of deadly bugs. As an opponent I find them challenging enough to play and deal with as is, I wouldn't want to see spawning boosted even if other things were reduced. Their cost would have to go up with greater spawning and that would detract from the horde feel.

On a different topic can a swarm with synapse absorb a broken swarm within 5cm? I'm not entirely sure I'm remembering it right but I think that may have happened in my recent game against tyranids and looking back on it I'm not sure it was right or not.


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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid Army List v10.2
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 12:04 pm 
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You can only absorb formations with no synapse creatures I think?

How are you getting 5-10 units per formation? That is a lot!! I was getting one or two but they were all small swarms and they didn't marshal. Maybe I've missed something


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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid Army List v10.2
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 1:01 pm 
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I know, I'd killed the broken one's synapse creatures.

I was referring to 5-10 individual tyranids per formation i.e. 1-2 stands of them, the same thing.


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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid Army List v10.2
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 1:06 pm 
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Gotcha. I'm not sure about absorbing broken formations, I don't think it specifies. Maybe it should?


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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid Army List v10.2
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 1:31 pm 
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Bring back the swarming queue! :p

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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid Army List v10.2
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 1:45 pm 
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I can hear a can of worms opening... How far back was that used? Or where can I find those rules?


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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid Army List v10.2
PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 9:08 pm 
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I think the newer spawning works ok as it has been implemented in this list. Older versions were more fiddly and sometimes allowed a degree of "redeployment" rather than gradual reinforcement. It's a different style admittedly.

On absorbing broken formations, the only specifier is that the formation has to be synapseless. You lose the extra activation and the absorbed formation also counts as lost for VP's purposes. This is also fine I think, Synapse should be able to have a powerful influence on tyranid synapse swarm creatures within range and quickly bring them back under the hive mind. However I also wouldn't mind seeing a harsher penalty for Swarms that remain leaderless (e.g. -3 or even more to initiative). Gaunts should be more confused on their own perhaps.

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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid Army List v10.2
PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 1:05 pm 
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GlynG wrote:
mspaetauf wrote:
but isn't that what the whole list is supposed to be about?

No, I don't know that it is. Coming back from the dead is a Necron thing and apart from the Tervigon there's no respawning mechanism in the 40k tyranid list. I think it's already significant (5-10 critters per formation per turn is a lot!) and useful as it is now, but it would seem silly/unrealistic and be more frustrating to play against if happened rather more.

I view tyranids as a horde of deadly bugs. As an opponent I find them challenging enough to play and deal with as is, I wouldn't want to see spawning boosted even if other things were reduced. Their cost would have to go up with greater spawning and that would detract from the horde feel.

This concerns me too. With every special rule boost you have to tone down something else, and that can only be done three ways:
- other "bad" special rules
- lower stats
- higher points

There always seems be resistance to accepting negative rules (eg automatically destroyed when synapse gone), and anyway the fewer special rules the better IMO.

The other two make the Nids feel less like a seething mass of pointy limbs which is a shame. Increasing points just means fewer activations, which would feel odd. The stats already aren't all that good, mainly because CC isn't worth that much in EpicA. So reducing them enough to balance out other boosts could make gaunts feel even more like grotz only (ie no threat).

There was always disagreement on whether swarming should be included in the first place, so best not to open that can of worms again IMO.

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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid Army List v10.2
PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 2:19 pm 
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The spawning system that's in the v10s started out with d3s. We had at least 3 dozen games of that in our playgroup, it was a very rare game when you had something left in your spawning pool at the end of the turn. Everyone agreed that it could be toned down.

We tried d2s next, and got in ten games with that. It worked better but people on the forums didn't like that lack of scaling when you went to M or L swarms. I agreed but rather than try d2s went to the flat numbers. It's simpler and easier to account for balance-wise.

On comparing them to the necrons, ya those can bring back more, however: regen is from the same pool as BM removal (nids get to do both), and regen is capped to your starting size and formation composition (nids can grow beyond starting size and are more flexible in what they can bring back). I see it as a trade, less numbers for more flexibility.

I'm not trying to discount your opinion mspaetauf, just telling you what we've gleaned in our games. Can you point in to any pics/reports so I can see how your terrain's laid out/what the bugs are doing?

On the 1/3 WE limit. I definitely want to get everyone's opinion on that, as they are varied. I'm holding off on that discussion until after I get another group's battle reports so I can put it up for approval.

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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid Army List v10.2
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 5:46 pm 
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GlynG wrote:
mspaetauf wrote:
but isn't that what the whole list is supposed to be about?

No, I don't know that it is. Coming back from the dead is a Necron thing and apart from the Tervigon there's no respawning mechanism in the 40k tyranid list. I think it's already significant (5-10 critters per formation per turn is a lot!) and useful as it is now, but it would seem silly/unrealistic and be more frustrating to play against if happened rather more.

I view tyranids as a horde of deadly bugs. As an opponent I find them challenging enough to play and deal with as is, I wouldn't want to see spawning boosted even if other things were reduced. Their cost would have to go up with greater spawning and that would detract from the horde feel.

On a different topic can a swarm with synapse absorb a broken swarm within 5cm? I'm not entirely sure I'm remembering it right but I think that may have happened in my recent game against tyranids and looking back on it I'm not sure it was right or not.


there has been spawning in the tyranid list from the first one by Jervis 10 years ago. 40K is not the only reference point.


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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid Army List v10.2
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 7:52 pm 
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GlynG wrote:
No, I don't know that it is. Coming back from the dead is a Necron thing and apart from the Tervigon there's no respawning mechanism in the 40k tyranid list.


Spawning/Swarming doesn't represent coming back from the dead, it mostly represents lost creatures wandering aimlessly on the battlefield coming into synapse range and so becoming viable units. *

Gaunts in 40k also used to have a "without number" upgrade that allowed a squad to "respawn" on the board edge when destroyed, to represent the vast waves of creatures.

* This is why I prefer a swarming queue, as it allows (psuedo)random placement of swarmed creatures.

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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid Army List v10.2
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 9:26 pm 
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How are we doing in terms of numbers of tyranid playtests out of curiosity Dave? There have been some recent battle reports so hopefully we're making good progress for getting the army approved and in the next tournament pack.


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