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Tyranid Variant Lists

 Post subject: Re: Tyranid Variant Lists
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:42 am 
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Ulrik wrote:
Jaggedtoothgrin wrote:
variant lists by their very nature use new stats or special rules. thats what makes them variants, and not just "the same list"


No they don't. Marine lists don't use new stats for tacticals.

What variant lists do is add a couple of new unit types, sometimes replacing old one (like "dark angel tactical squad"), and maybe add a special rule or two. They do not replace the entire old army.


Exactly and this is absolutely fine.
Altering stats for existing units isn't fine unless the AC agrees.

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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid Variant Lists
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:43 am 
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To be fair, we've never had this situation before where the AC lays out all the stats of all possible units, not just the ones in the core list.

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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid Variant Lists
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:45 am 
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Tyranids are in a unique position as it seems that they have two "core" lists.

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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid Variant Lists
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:46 am 
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They will have soon anyway...

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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid Variant Lists
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:47 am 
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Tyranids are in a unique position of being 8 years in development without a finished army list to show for all that effort.

They are the single worst-handled major army list in Epic, and splintering off into half a dozen different development efforts will go nowhere towards the goal of getting an accepted Tyranid list finished.

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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid Variant Lists
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:57 am 
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neither will alienating developers and playtesters. i agree that the nid list has suffered, but if people feel sufficiently strongly about a topic to create an alternate list, they're well within their rights to do so. that is the situation dave himself participated in earlier with his onachus list. it was more popular than the 9.2.1 list, and has now essentially replaced it.

i dont have an issue with "having multiple unit stats for the same named unit muddies the waters. if you create new stats or rules for a lictor, call it something other than just "lictor"*" but that isnt what is being said here.

i do have an issue with the suggestion that the two 'core' lists are being treated like the only valid lists. there are two variant lists that i personally have a significant interest in. both of which require new units** and special rules to represent themselves. one, i feel, requires re-statting (and thus, it seems, renaming) of a few of the currently existant units as well.

both those lists, however, definitely have a place in the NetEA Tyranids section, as they are both NetEA Tyranids lists. they deserve playtesting as much as the 'core lists' do (although by their very nature, being fringe lists, are unlikely to recieve the quantity of playtesting that the mainstream list would)


(*infact, i am not sure why that needs to be said at all, i was under the impression that was common practice)
(**and that alone proves that we dont already have stats for all possible units)

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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid Variant Lists
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:02 pm 
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Quote:
i agree that the nid list has suffered, but if people feel sufficiently strongly about a topic to create an alternate list, they're well within their rights to do so. that is the situation dave himself participated in earlier with his onachus list. it was more popular than the 9.2.1 list, and has now essentially replaced it.

Repeating the mistakes of the past will not lead to anything other than a repeat of the past: Fragmentation of effort, and years on end of no single Tyranid list reaching completion.

Especially when most of the variants seem to be offering exactly the same list style as either Onochus or Leviathan (Old units or new units) with nothing to mark them out as genuine "variant" lists.

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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid Variant Lists
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:09 pm 
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i dont imagine dave views onachus (or its replacing 9.2.1) as a mistake of the past. if anything, it shows that change can be a good thing

and again, i totally agree that people should give this a try before trying to make their own onachus/leviathan style lists (but they should definitely then be allowed to do so if they still feel that need)
but people working on biotitan or genestealer cult (or other variant lists i havent thought of yet) should be free to do so unmolested, within the forum they belong, and without paying tithes to the new sherrif.

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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid Variant Lists
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:10 pm 
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Bio Titan list, fine.
Genestealer cult list, fine - Though I believe sub-champion Zombocom is already working on one, there.

Yet another "old skool" or "new skool" army list. Not fine.

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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid Variant Lists
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:13 pm 
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So be fair, I'm the only one working on a Genestealer Cult that I know of.

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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid Variant Lists
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:05 pm 
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To clarify, I'm not demanding anything. I'm asking, nothing more. I could have moved or re-named threads on here. I haven't done that, nor do I plan to start. I hardly think asking people to do something makes me a dictator.

Furthermore, my intent here is to garner empirical evidence via playtests for v10. The list has been out for less than a day and a good portion of what I've been given are uncorroborated opinions without a single die being rolled with the list. I don't what those, I want battle reports. Those who wish to make variant lists obviously have some initiative and want to use it. I'm appealing to them to help get the 'nid foundation in order.

It's not my intention to oppress other lists or squeeze out the competition. In my mind there is no competition, the rules and the stats laid down are it. I'm asking people to help me shape them via something more analytical than "It needs to be this" and "It has to be that". I'm not demanding that people use my list and my list alone, I'm asking for help.

Those without the models will obviously have a tough time with this. Other options include VASSAL, failing that I'll put together some paper cutouts like there are for the rulebook training scenarios. Whatever I need to do to get some more battle reports.

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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid Variant Lists
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:54 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid Variant Lists
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:33 pm 
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I think it is a valid position to say these are the Tyranid stats and rules. You can go and do what you like list wise but if you use a creature that exists you use the current version of the stats (which currently is that defined in the ref sheet, every other races variant lists follow this principle). Similarly for the special rules (although I think there is always some leeway on adding or removing in a variant) however without a stable list I think if your variant needs alternate rules then I think waiting a little while for things to settle down would be a good idea.

Fundamentally though I think any playtest of any list using the rules and stats that have been laid out is valuable towards stabilisation of the list tested and other lists that share the stats and rules.

Although it would be trivial to update the two lists I've done, my current playtesting ability has dwindled to effectively zero.


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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid Variant Lists
PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:27 pm 
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Hy, i think the Fanlist (not only for tyranids) are made not to replace the net EA Army Champion list . All the list have all some good ideas what the army champion can use in his final list to make the list better . i Hope the Army Champion read all list to use all the good ideas and perhaps think abaout some ideas to use it .without the poeple that whrite list and bring ideas to the forum the forum not works .the army champion do not whrite the list alone , he must try to bring all good ideas from the army or fanlist to one final list .every list represent a gruop of gamers and directions.one final list is the best way .perhaps some options can be decides with a vote for it ?


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