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Command and Control for Nids

 Post subject: Re: Command and Control for Nids
PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 3:23 pm 
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My impression was more that Leviathan could potentially be a base list for the 'new stuff' whereas Onachus has a style and intent that suggests it's better as a variant of an 'old stuff' base list.


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 Post subject: Re: Command and Control for Nids
PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 8:41 pm 
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Why are we talking about variant lists again when were trying to finish the Core list?


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 Post subject: Re: Command and Control for Nids
PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 9:55 pm 
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Angel_of_Caliban wrote:
Why are we talking about variant lists again when were trying to finish the Core list?


Probably because nobody can agree on what the core list should actually be.


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 Post subject: Re: Command and Control for Nids
PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 10:04 pm 
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Ulrik wrote:
Angel_of_Caliban wrote:
Why are we talking about variant lists again when were trying to finish the Core list?


Probably because nobody can agree on what the core list should actually be.

That's the truth....


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 Post subject: Re: Command and Control for Nids
PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:27 pm 
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Angel_of_Caliban wrote:
Why are we talking about variant lists again when were trying to finish the Core list?


Because the AC isn't here, and isn't likely to be for some time, and the core list hasn't been updated in two years...

If we can get a set of core principles for the varient lists, we can then present them to chroma when he returns. In the mean time, we'll be able to test them, and develop our individual lists.


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 Post subject: Re: Command and Control for Nids
PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 12:12 am 
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I think everyone should agree on the core concepts and special rules first, and I think a "rebuild everything from the ground up" move would be quite a good idea.

And leaving stuff as suggestions really won't solve much, if anything.


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 Post subject: Re: Command and Control for Nids
PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 11:05 am 
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Athmospheric wrote:
I think everyone should agree on the core concepts and special rules first, and I think a "rebuild everything from the ground up" move would be quite a good idea.

And leaving stuff as suggestions really won't solve much, if anything.

+1

I understand the AC is AWOL. I just think its pointless and more confusing with all the variants. More and longer is goes on for the more fractured the Nid base. It will take along time to reassemble the Nid base and I think development will suffer, more than having no progress.

i think Neal has done a good job at trying to round in all the lose cattle. Trying to get the Special rules and base concepts down and yet it seems like people are still working on their lists instead of stopping everything and focusing in on the base/core list and rules.

It just seems that if the AC was here, he would just be ignored and variant progress would continue to tear the Nid base apart.

Just MHO...


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 Post subject: Re: Command and Control for Nids
PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 3:19 pm 
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Angel_of_Caliban wrote:
Athmospheric wrote:
I think everyone should agree on the core concepts and special rules first, and I think a "rebuild everything from the ground up" move would be quite a good idea.

And leaving stuff as suggestions really won't solve much, if anything.

+1

I understand the AC is AWOL. I just think its pointless and more confusing with all the variants. More and longer is goes on for the more fractured the Nid base. It will take along time to reassemble the Nid base and I think development will suffer, more than having no progress.

i think Neal has done a good job at trying to round in all the lose cattle. Trying to get the Special rules and base concepts down and yet it seems like people are still working on their lists instead of stopping everything and focusing in on the base/core list and rules.

It just seems that if the AC was here, he would just be ignored and variant progress would continue to tear the Nid base apart.

Just MHO...


I don't think we can do what you seem to want. My take on the goal of Neals push is that the core rules and concepts will be nailed down and after that the unit stats will be unified. The problem is then we will be left with 3 unified variant Tyranid lists, Jormungandr, Leviathan and Onachus. The one list that we can't touch is 9.2.1 as that is for Chroma as the AC to decide on.

The best we can do at the moment is unify Jormungandr, Leviathan and Onachus.


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 Post subject: Re: Command and Control for Nids
PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 3:39 pm 
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Angel_of_Caliban wrote:


It just seems that if the AC was here, he would just be ignored and variant progress would continue to tear the Nid base apart.

Just MHO...[/color]


Well, this can go both ways. When the AC was "here", we got a 'nid list that had all sorts of mechanic-bending* special rules and funky unit stats, despite a lot of informed opinion that it shouldn't have gone in that direction. LV warriors, 1/2 guants rule, indispensable ravenor bodyguards, and 8DC (!!) Dominatrix in particular stand out in that regard. When we played the 9.1 list, 'nids won about 1/2 their engagements and had to set them up like everyone else (coordinate FM's, lay BM's, get into CC vice FF); with the funky 9.2 rules, these measures are unnecessary and they win most of the engagements. This just isn't right, and was pointed out repeatedly (and demonstrated in playtests) to the AC. These concerns were dismissed again and again. In that environment, is it surprising what happened?

The " 'nid base" you talk about was fractured long before the AC went AWOL. I'm also not seeing why having a cohesive base is that important.



*I'm being charitable here; some might say mechanic breaking

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 Post subject: Re: Command and Control for Nids
PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 3:42 pm 
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Sorry for everyone's ego, but if we could shelve the variants for some time and just decide upon the core list rules, we will finally achieve something after these... what ? 7 years of development ? If not, formulating "recommendations that might be taken into account if and when the AC comes back" while 4 other lists still diverge, this is just another eruption of meaningless debate.

The tyranid list -just like any others core list actually- isn't the property of the AC. I have a hard time listening to the "let's act according to the procedure" when the procedure has ended, after so long a time, with 4 lists with wild divergences and what is already starting to look like a mexican standoff already. Again.

Let's forget about fan list. They all have merits, some nice ideas and initiative, but if we are to get an actual core list, we need to speak of the core list. We'll never get unanimity, but I think we can certainly reach some measure of consensus.

We mostly have 3 options right now :
- Continue as before, and then those debates and polls were basically just wasted times that all list developers will now use as arguments to explain to the others that their list is better. It's a bit sad, but at least it's traditional.
- Ignore list developers and actually try to build a new list without them, or at least lay some foundations, a given set of special rules and one or two guiding principles, so that there actually is a proposition for an AC to ponder and consider, when it comes to that, rather than a handful of indecisive polls and some heated debates.
- Actually rally the list developpers to the devourer cause and do something quick and new and exciting.

I was hoping for 3), but of course if that's impossible, we'll settle with 1) once more and will all happily go back to haggling on the last FW invention for the Imperium. We all know that road, I'm sure it would be surprisingly easy. Two week is all it takes.


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 Post subject: Re: Command and Control for Nids
PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:26 pm 
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We can't shelve the varients, because they're the only thing we CAN work on at the moment. If we shelve the varients, the only other options are either doing nothing, as has happened for the last two years, or the netERC appointing a new army champion, which won't happen since chroma is one of them.

What we're trying to do is to get the varients all on the same page with regards to special rules, which we can test out and then present to Chroma when he gets back. The only alternative is to do nothing.

I'm going to open a new thread specifically for the purpose of bringing together an acceptable set of special rules for the varients to try, then we can update and start testing.


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 Post subject: Re: Command and Control for Nids
PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 5:45 pm 
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To make control of spawning easier we set up a small card table with a posterboard on it squared off and numbered. Each number relates to a Synapse capable swarm on the table. Any losses each swarm suffered went into the proper numbered box on the table. It eliminated a lot of confusion, list checking, and unit type counting.

One idea I had for the Dominatrix, before I left but never posted, was to make her a free form spawning booster. Basically she can add her spawning points to any nearby swarm, say 30cm for now, or use them for her swarm if she has one.

BTS was, has been, and still is, the toughest VC to nail down for the Nids because of all the spawning they can perform.

Cheers All


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 Post subject: Re: Command and Control for Nids
PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 4:21 am 
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zombocom wrote:
We can't shelve the varients, because they're the only thing we CAN work on at the moment.


What's honestly to stop all the active Tyranid developers producing a Tyranids v10.0 list?

Standardise the special rules, produce a list, playtest it, post results.


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 Post subject: Re: Command and Control for Nids
PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 5:10 am 
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MikeT wrote:
zombocom wrote:
We can't shelve the variants, because they're the only thing we CAN work on at the moment.


What's honestly to stop all the active Tyranid developers producing a Tyranids v10.0 list?

Standardize the special rules, produce a list, playtest it, post results.

Nothing....expect for themselves. I think Neal/ERC can be a temp AC till Chroma's return.

I just wanna see the mechanics and rules for the Nids to be nailed down. But all I hear is "I might try that in my list" or "In my list we do it like that..."

We don't even have to get Core list 10.0, I just wants the background basics and rules done. Then if that happens unification on Unit Stats.


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 Post subject: Re: Command and Control for Nids
PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 3:19 pm 
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One thing we should recognize is that Chroma was never intended to be the AC for the Tyranids in the first place. He was a custodian while Jaldon was away on business. Now that Jaldon has returned, he needs to make a decision if he wants to take the AC mantle back. My guess is the NetERC won't oppose it and quite frankly I don't see Chroma having the time to champion the list properly anyway. He's wearing nine Epic hats and just had a baby.

That should be the zeroeth step in all this mess.

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